This is interesting don't know if you all seen it before: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y_GULVhJmM"]Chen Taiji Master Ren Guang Yi - Compact Cannon Fist ll - YouTube[/ame]
Hi TQ, Well my friend. I've been watching this thread and I couldn't bear to see you sitting out here all alone for one more second - so here I am. Yes I've watched that clip quite a few times. I think it's quite something to watch. There's not a solitary doubt in my mind that Ren is capable of quite amazing things. The only "problem" is the same old problem; that is, how the school is run, at least as I surmise from the website that I found. Perpend - a) On one hand, students go for year after year, working on refining form and breathing, etc, and we're all told "it takes yearrrrrrrrrrrrs to 'build the skills necessary for fighting'". b) On the other, simultaneous, hand the very same school will offer weekend fighting classes for policemen and/or security guards. As Mr. Spock would say, "Jim, that is not logical." EITHER (a), it really takes years to learn and refine the movements and build gong fu before going on to actual sparring OR (b) it is possible for "certain people" (police etc) to learn some meaningful and useful fighting skills in just one weekend. The two are mutually exclusive, at least to me. If a teacher/school can teach something useful in a weekend, then why are so many students spending so much time with form practise? Alternatively, if the students are in fact learning the "right way" then WHAT are the police/security people learning...what are they paying for? I'm a little tired and maybe could have been more articulate, but I think people can see what I'm getting at. At least I hope so. My point is, if people can learn REAL FIGHTING skills in one weekend, then why can't MOST OF US (I mean the most of us who have been practising linked forms for yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs) just go somewhere and learn to fight rather than going to learn to breath like a damn tortoise while standing like a goose? The dojos aren't exactly jumping out of the phone book now are they? Can you even imagine what external stylists must think when they read all of us going around and around with this stuff? It's embarassing. How many of you, that have been practising form for years, openly tell people about the martial arts side of taiji? Or do you avoid it because you're afraid that someone will want you to show them something? Yes I know there are warriors here, but I'm addressing my question to those who have faithfully gone to their lessons for years, and the occasional "seminar" only to learn a few soon-forgotten applications (applications that you probably forgot because you had no-one to train with). In case anyone was wondering, I think I'm still on-topic. Would I learn from Master Ren? Yes, but only if he would teach me fighting skills. Ahh....but I think that's private lesson type talk, and I'm not Lou Reed - I don't have that kind of money/time. So that's my 5 cents (one must adjust for inflation). Don't want to stir you up TQ, don't see why we need to disagree about anything. TBH I thought it was good of you to put a clip up, and more than a bit sad that no-one responded. EDIT - I forgot the people who are into taiji for reasons other than self defense! If it's all about form and fitness, then where why has TQ's post been so lonely....where are all the comments praising Ren's incredible agility, etc. (for the record, I'm not being sarcastic. I think tha master Ren has incredible skill). Actually, I had a reread before I posted this, and I think it's more like a dollar's worth! Sorry TQ, I know you just wanted to share a clip cheers, LQ
LQ, No worries everyone's comments are always welcomed! I personally have never trained with Master Ren and cannot comment on his training methods. I think some teachers say it takes years to learn fighting b/c that is what it took them. Some teachers can naturally articulate fighting methods easier and (quite frankly are better teachers) so some students don't have to learn for years. As for police officers and combat I can see how maybe they can get some good fighting skills out of a weekend seminar, b/c most are already trained in hand to hand combat and many may have already used it in life or death situations. Where as some of us (including me) have not had these experiences before and sometimes that "fighting spirit" takes time to cultivate as well. So maybe to an extent it does take time for some to develop fighting skills. I personally love the martial side of Tai Chi so whenever someone asks about Martial applications, I like to show them some of the martial side. If I don't know how an application would work against such and such, obviously I have more to learn (maybe a few more yearrrrrrrrrrs ) Also I think what takes years is learning the numerous ways one technique can be applied. When MA fight the idea is not to be mechanical and Tai Chi is a art that "preaches" this, be relaxed, flow unceasingly, water is a huge metaphor for Tai Chi, this is what I think takes the years to develop. It is not necessarily Martial skill, but being able to flow and move and actually do Tai Chi as a combat art is what takes time. Anyone can do Single Whip and use muscular force, but to align the body and coordinate it so the entire body moves, this is what takes the time and effort we put in. In the meantime officers or weekend warriors can learn to do these moves/postures/applications physically and with muscular force, but it takes a true student of the art to embody all the principles. thanks for replying, didn't really expect a reply, just thought it was a cool vid. but great input!
Hi TQ, I have to run, but will come back to this when I can. First of all thanks for remaining open-minded about things. If you find yourself in a situation, believe me, your fighting spirit will kick in pretty hard and fast. I wouldn't wish you to be in a situation, but if you were, you might surprise yourself. Yes, developing self-defense skills takes time, but your "fighting spirit" is hard-wired, simply "there", and doesn't need any cultivation...better direction, yes, but not cultivation. My pleasure Cheers, LQ
Hey, folks. Well, strictly speaking, it can take a little longer to develop good TC skills than in some other systems.Don't get me wrong, I could train somebody for say, a year, and they could stand with someone from another system (I'm limiting this to non-groundwork,ok?) with a years training,, but they won't have developed real good TC specific skills yet.Some of that takes more time. BUT- if you read history,and I mean from the 20th century, not way back when, you'll find there are more than a few who after say five years or so had enough to "take the platform" and issue challenges.Of course,these were folks who practiced at least five to seven hours a day, but the real point is WHAT they were practicing, as in what they were taught.How much an instructor is willing to impart has a lot to do with it.Y'know. if you practiced 8th grade math for ten years you'd know the subject inside and out,but a high school physics student would know and be able to utilize a lot more math skills than you. Basically, I feel a lot of teachers, and often it's 'cause that's what they went through,aren't very forthcoming even with their serious students.Sorta like "You have to consistently score 100% on your 8th grade math tests before I'll teach you algebra." I've met/known people who studied, and applied themselves for years under legit practitioners,and did have certain skills,but were nowhere near the level of others I've known who had studied (and applied themselves) under others but for much less time. Doesn't do much to preserve and perpetuate the systems.
Spot on LQ. Taiji teachers need to stop messing around and teach the art martially again. Fighting skills can be learned from day one. Again, all the more reason to do contact work from day one. Otherwise, when people come to try to apply their forms, it is all completely new - a massive mental shift. I've SEEN it taught that way and the students invariably revert to the Karate they learned when they were 12 for application, instead of the Taiji forms they've been learning for the past 3 years. They cannot relate the two disciplines. The key here is as you say, police officers have already had some fighting experience (this may be true of plenty of civilians too, incidentally, like myself and many of my students.) It obviously doesn't do them any harm to learn to fight first and refine it later. If they can get to the real stuff faster than the form students then that proves my point exactly. Get contact training from day one - you'll build martial spirit and fighting skills in no time. Then you can get on with refining it. Remember the saying "stick Taiji is better than tofu Taiji because at least you can fight with a stick." Same answer again really. If you train fighting applications five hours a day, you'll get a lot further than training form five hours a day, providing you keep trying to refine your techniques and adhere to Taiji principles. Just being able to get something to work isn't good enough. But training form for years is no guarantee at all that when you start applying the art, you won't get into all sorts of sloppy habits anyway to begin with. I personally think a lot of mistakes can go in to your body when you are doing abstract movement that lacks any accurate intention. It is a lose lose situation. You can learn a form for 5 years if you want and then start learning to apply it, or you can stop wasting time and start learning to apply movement from day one. As Yang Jianhou said "principle first, movement second" to which I'd like to add "you should not so much as lift a finger without first knowing why." The only reason I keep saying it is because it is absolutely true.
Just to pre-empt any angry "OK jkzorya, well if that's the case then why does so-and-so say..." type questions the answer is because for whatever reason, it suits them to teach the art that way. It certainly isn't for the students' benefit.
Jk, I agree with you, if you are in Tai Chi to learn the MA then you had better be learning it as a MA! Though, above is not a fair comparison b/c as we know Tai Chi is a completely different MA than many others out there b/c of the very principles it is founded upon. If you teach someone a "Soft/internal" art such as Tai Chi and they are confronted with a "Hard/External" form of fighting it is almost natural instinct to match strength for strength, even more so if they are bigger than a person etc. Even from starting with martial applications of Tai Chi from day one, this will still take time to develop as the body must relearn much of its previous training. Irregardless of what type of training it was, form me personally when I even switch Tai Chi styles at times it is difficult. Any MA takes time to learn and incorporate into body memory, I think Tai Chi even more so at times b/c of the principles and ideas of body alignment. People who are WAY out of body alignment may take much more time to learn to do certain martial applications simply b/c their body structure has to physically change. I speak of this from my own personal experience, while I have learned martial applications and have trained in some for a year or more. I still have trouble with some b/c of lack of muscles used for said applications, this is something that will only come with the proper training and work. This is why (imo) some individuals may take years to progress in, I think we have to be careful here not to take it too literally and mean that a person does not make ANY progress in the years. But rather it takes years (or an undisclosed amount of time) to learn EVERY application to a high level of practice. My teacher told me once of William CC Chen walking up to a stage to accept an award at one of the great get togethers at Tai Chi farm and a guy thought it would be "neat" if he could sneak up on Chen. Well the guy approached Chen from behind and wrapped his arms around Chen's neck (not bad just playing a joke) and Chen immediately went into repulse the monkey and elbowed and then flipped the guy. After the whole fiasco, Chen walked up on stage for his reward (fortunately, the guy was not seriously hurt) and the first thing Chen said was: "I have practiced Tai Chi for 20-30 (cannot remember for sure) years and have never truly understood the application for repulse the monkey. Now I know!" Now I don't think Chen here never really knew the application, but rather he never UNDERSTOOD it until it was completely applied in such a situation. Also I think it is important that it may take years, to learn EVERY application thoroughly, that is just my opinion though.
No - there are no soft styles and hard styles - any decent martial style knows to balance both qualities. Anyone who uses localised strength and excess muscle tension is just a slow, clumsy, poor martial artist. They've either been taught wrong or haven't understood the purpose of the different aspects of their training. There are no external styles or internal styles either - it is a false dichotomy made up by Sun Lutang in 1915. What does it actually mean? No one, no one will give you an answer that means anything - just smoke and mirrors. Also, the best way to develop a deep generic knowledge of the different possible techniques for any given movement is to be shown as many variations as your teacher knows and to be encouraged to explore your own ideas in addition, with their guidance to ensure you're still sticking to the rules. And the quicker you fully understand those rules and your teacher's judging criteria, the better. You might even be able to pick them up if their standards get sloppy - everyone's a winner.
I agree, Perhaps I should have been clearer. Someone that was a boxer or karate practitioner or even someone with no former MA experience, may tend to naturally throw a simple punch when confronted. Rather than taking a true stance, relaxing the waist, using whole body momentum etc. What I meant is that they would not necessarily immediately think to embody Tai Chi principles, if confronted but would tend to go to a "more natural/instinctual" method of defense (to them). I also agree with your last paragraph, but I think one main application or technique should be fully understood before showing tons of others. In my experience anyways if you just show someone 20 different applications for one posture they may only remember 1-5 and then they may not even remember those effectively. Where as, for me at least, if I learn one application thoroughly and fully, I can easily take the next 20 and do them as they are just slight variations of the "main" application/posture etc. This is also what I have observed in my fellow classmates. however, not saying there is a right or wrong way, everyone has teaching methods that are different, just b/c of the difference does not make them less effective.
Hi TQ, Sure - I just think that the single most effective way to train to fight is to practice applying martial techniques on other people. So it may take you a few weeks to do a technique reasonably well - that's fine. Then you can work on a variation for a few weeks. Then you can do another and another and another, observing the similarities and differences to deepen your knowledge of both. No one is talking about 20 variations in one lesson or even one month. Differentiation and comparitive study are great ways to get to grips with something. Also nothing is as instructive as feeling why a knee needs to be where it needs to be in application. No amount of empty form will enable people to really understand the intricacies of alignment. Also - why is it considered OK for people to learn lots and lots of form movements but not lots of fighting techniques? Learn a shape by all means. Learn why it is shaped as it is in martial terms. See it applied. Maybe have a go at applying it yourself. Be told why your technique didn't work so well. Try to make adjustments. Do the move as a solo form. Refine the movements during both solo and partner work - apply again, refine some more, apply again refine some more... Learn a tactical variation. There is no reason why not. Learning to print before learning to join up the writing. It is how we learn every other skill under the sun.
Hi all, I had planned to come back and comment, but there's really nothing that I can add to the discussion. I read through the replies, and each time I thought of responding to something, a later post had addressed it. Good replies, guys and gal. Regards to all, LQ
Tq-boxers certainly use whole body momentum.Pick up a copy of Haislet's classic work "Boxing".Gives an excellent explanation,with basic exercises,on the mechanics involved,subordinating the upper torso to the hips,arms as transference vehicles of the force generated by the body,relaxation,etc.I guess you'll be surprised. Not sure what you mean by "true stance".Boxing stances allow for quick and excellent power generation.Really, check that book out.You have an inquisitive mind. I think you'll like it.Unlike most "how to" books, it's a quite useful workbook,good info not necessarily restricted to prizefights.
Hi El Medico, I may just pick up a copy of that too! Quite a coincidence El Med. I was just watching a documentary called "Fight Science" this morning, and the boxer's power generation was explained. They were showing (using computer graphics, etc) the punch being powered from the ground up, the energy moving like a wave from the feet, through the waist, back, shoulders and finally expressed in the hands. I'm piggy-backing on your recommendation El Med ( ) - it sounds like a very interesting book. Regards and thanks, LQ
Interesting on the power coming up the legs.The idea is to snap the hips first,(although some also incorporate a push off the ball of the foot).Levers and pistons,like Wm. Chen. Well I don't wish to sidetrack this thread further, so I did enjoy seeing the short Cannon Fist.One of my teachers studied with Ren for a short period before Ren relocated and was impressed with his abilities.
:topic: Quite right El Med - I failed to mention that the explanation I saw was based upon punches thrown by Steve Petramale, and that program's explanation included talk of pushing from the ball of the foot. Regards, LQ
Thanks for the recommendation! Will certainly look it over I guess what I meant was it can be a bit more difficult for people to incorporate Tai Chi principles to make them effective for combat, off of a relatively "short" amount of training. I did not mean to imply that the other arts did not teach it, but what I meant was for a person to truly embody all Tai Chi principles it would take time. As there are differences in any MA, so the same could be said for any cross training or if you were switching your training in MA.
That's what I meant in my post about training somebody for a year,They could be effective, but won't have developed say, a high level of sensitivity when in contact yet,being able to pick up on the best angles for balance attacks, etc,or learned to issue power in a good TC way.Some stuff just takes time.But it's all relative.I had a southern Shaolin brother who was just naturally very relaxed,more so in combative type training than some of the TC guys I knew who had studied longer. As for principles,most of the TC princicples are common in most CMAs.Again, it's just degree.If you split into twins, and I taught one Fu Hok and the other TC, you'll both utilize relaxation, but the TC twin would have a deeper level of relaxation.Doesn't mean he'd beat the other twin,tho'.It's just one facet/quality among many.
