Collegiate, HS, Folkstyle? Scoring?

Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by belltoller, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Belltoller Jr. #2 began practice this week. As they don't have a separate division for 11 year olds, he's under the High School umbrella and therefore the ruleset is High School.

    Can anyone answer - what is the difference between American HS, Collegiate and Folkstyle Wrestling?

    I'm sitting there watching them demo how the matches are scored - and I don't get it - I got that a takedown is 2points. Seems like an escape was awarded something...

    It was all a blur on the mats and the coaches-acting-as-referees called out "one...two.." I'm assuming they are awarding points - but I really couldn't tell for what.

    Can someone clear up belltoller's clouds?
     
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

  3. E-Rocker

    E-Rocker Valued Member

    Based on vague memories of my jr. high school wrestling in the early '90s, the coaches-as-refs at your event were probably counting "near falls." If you pin both of your opponent's shoulders to the mat for three seconds, that ends the match. If you pin just one shoulder, it's called a near fall & doesn't end the match, but does get the pinner some points. Don't remember how many. To the best of my recollection, refs indicated points via hand signals, not verbally, so I think your officials were probably counting seconds, not points.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  4. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Ja, the coach/ref was holding up one and two fingers as he called out the numbers. Still working on learning basic stuff here.
     
  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Over in UK.

    1 thumb up is 1 point
    1 thumb, 1 finger is 2 points
    ...and then on and so forth up to 5 points (in old rules...recent changes that now it maxs out at 4 points)

    it used to be, if you do a Belly to Back/German Suplex where both soles of the feet rainbow over and face the ceiling. Its 5 points. But now its taken down to 4 points.

    Rolling someone around the floor and a throw both score the same as 2 points.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    One of my students who learns Chinese wrestling from me. He has been a western wrestler for 15 years. He was the number 3 state wrestler in the Michigan state. Here are some information that he wrote in another forum when someone asked similar question.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is an overview of the primary differences in Western wrestling styles. In the USA there are 3 main branches:

    1. Collegiate (also called folk style)
    2. Freestyle
    3. Greco-Roman

    1. Collegiate is the college/high school style. The rules are different between college and high school regarding intensity, period length, overtime, and some scoring. In high/middle school the rules are per state. In college the rules are national.

    2. Freestyle is an internationally practiced style. There is a little variance in scoring/rules depending on the year and from state to state. Freestyle is an olympic sport and FILA endorsed. FILA is the international federation of associated wrestling styles and they now cover some "combat" grappling forms. USA Wrestling also governs freestyle and greco here, and they now have beach wrestling, which is like BJJ. But not mainstream like Freestyle and Greco. Freestyle is an olympic style.

    3. Gereco-Roman style is more popular in other countries compared to popularity of freestyle here. Greco is basically just freestyle with out use of legs. Greco is also an olympic sport, but America does not do as well in it in the olympics as they do in Freestyle.

    Basic differences, in my opinion, having competed in the state, national, and college levels in collegiate/freestyle:

    1. Collegiate/folk style is primarily concerned with dominance on the mat/ground, compared to the others. 2 points are awarded for any takedown, which is determined by control once both guys are on the mat. An escape back to standing is only worth 1 point. A reversal where the controlled man takes top control of the opponent is 2 points. In college there are points awarded for riding time. So if you get taken down, then get a reversal, then ride your opponent for 1 minute you get 1 point extra and win. Much of the time training is devoted to mat work: riding, tilting, pinning, reversal. A pin is a total win. To pin, the winner must demonstrate control of the opponent on his back (touching the mat flat) for about 3 seconds. Also, most throws are illegal in collegiate. In college you can be much rougher than in high school. But you must demonstrate total control through a "throw" or it is potentially dangerous and illegal. So rear embrace throw, leg blocking, and front cut, standing fireman's carry type of stuff is illegal in collegiate.

    2. In freestyle, the game is about back exposure, and if both men are on the mat with no specific point moves being generated, the ref will stand both guys up quickly (about 10-15 seconds). In this style, points can be scored many ways, often before a takedown occurs. A leg block headlock done well would be a 5 point throw in freestyle, but you have to maintain contact with your opponent all the way to the mat to get those points. A rear embrace or standing fireman's or a bowing throw would also be 5 point throws if done well, 4 if not. If you did a bowing throw just like in shuai chiao but remained standing you would get 2 points for back exposure on your opponent, but would not get the extra points for the takedown, control, or finesse. If you did a single leg, then sweep the remaining leg so the opponent falls to his back, then fall on him that would be a 3 point takedown. 1 for the takedown, 2 for back exposure. Also, if you are on the mat, then roll your opponent over even if you don't have takedown control you still get 2 points for exposing your opponents back to the mat. A pin in freestyle is also a total victory, but in freestyle you only have to touch your opponents inner shoulder blades to the mat for a split second to score a pin. So in freestyle there really are no true sacrifice throws, and one good headlock without the root can be an instant win. So in collegiate if a guy shoots a double leg, you sprawl, grind his face to the mat, then hope to get behind him to score a takedown. In freestyle you borrow his force, throw him over your shoulder with a front headlock or crotch throw and score 2 points instantly.

    3. Greco-Roman is basically just freestyle wrestling, but you cannot use your legs or touch your opponents legs. Basically Greco is to Freestyle what boxing is to Muy Thai.

    This is a freestyle match. The USA guy taught me my stand up technique. Notice his response to the leg shooting.

    [ame="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VsvzYeOQUlE"]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VsvzYeOQUlE[/ame]

    This is a collegiate response to double leg, and illustrates the different focus compared to freestyle. Andy, the guy in blue was one of my training partners in high school. He did a lot of freestyle. And his headlock is the most that is allowed in a collegiate match. A full throw would have been illegal.

    [ame="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx3XKQ7Mq10"]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx3XKQ7Mq10[/ame]

    Wrestlers paid to keep them out of mma and competing for the olympics.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/sports/05wrestling.html?_r=0

    One wrestlers outlook. I agree, wrestling is a tougher sport than mma.

    http://www.jordanburroughs.com/blog/why-i-chose-wrestling-instead-of-mma
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  7. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Wow, thanks UNO Who!
     
  8. E-Rocker

    E-Rocker Valued Member

    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  9. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Here you go...

    This video series helped me a ton to understand what I was looking at when my kids first started wrestling:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP1jRARJoVg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP1jRARJoVg[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73cKKQAg_U0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73cKKQAg_U0[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZs0uyr6EEE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZs0uyr6EEE[/ame]
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I've only ever competed in Freestyle. My coach just advised, don't concentrate on the points and keep going for the pin. I noticed, as I compete, I wouldn't know what the score was. In my last match when I broke my hand, I kept going and even got a throw in (from the ground) but I was trying to survive.

    Turns out , I lost by one point and gained more points in rapid succession when I realised I was injured. (you need 10 clear points ahead to win via Technical )
     
  11. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Thank you both very kindly. This is exactly what I was looking for!
     
  12. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I don't recall wrestling ever in the UK, except for professional wrestling - there was this thing called Sport World or something-another.

    Of course, after 40 years, things remembered accurately ...

    Good advise from your coach - my son's coaches gives them pretty well on the same.
     
  13. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    World of Sport with Dickie Davis?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Sport_(UK_TV_series)
     
  14. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    I just want to mention in response to the comment about the popularity of Greco:

    Greco tends to be bigger in the Nordics and Eastern Europe than other areas of Europe. I've done Greco in Czech Republic and Finland.

    Everyone starts with Freestyle, then the males end up doing Greco and the women stick with Freestyle.

    I have no idea why this is....neither did anyone I asked.

    Personally love Greco, fantastic art.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2015
  15. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    That's it! My, but you are a resourceful one!


    Yep - Greco-Roman is the only one I'm personally familiar with. I actually saw my alltime favourite sport hero, Aleksandr Karelin, win Gold at the 1996 Olympics - ah, what a man, what a brute.

    Another irony in that I found out recently that the Belfast Bruiser (Dave Finlay) lives here with his family. His daughter was/is in the same state wrestling org that my son is in! In fact, she won a major state championship at ten years old a couple of years ago.


    [​IMG]
     
  16. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Greco was really hard to find in the UK. And it was pretty hard to train with the guys in Prague and Finland. Wrestling is something that kids do, then either drop out of, or continue and compete if they're half decent. So although I was made very welcome in the classes, I wasn't really taught properly, I was just expected to jump in and muddle along. Most of the lessons were warm up, then maybe look at a technique (especially after a comp.), which was very advanced, and then lots and lots of wrestling drills or we'd just wrestle. All the guys could wrestle and training was more about refining their existing technique as opposed to learning new ones.The clubs didn't cater for beginners, there was no beginners' group or anything like. I had done some Freestyle in the UK, so could cope...just about, but I saw a fair few of adults turn up, never to come back.

    Bit of a shame really as Greco is easily my favourite grappling style; it's a surprisingly subtle and beautiful art...when you know what to look for.

    karelin. He is no man, he's a god!

    Use the connection and get your son doing pro! After 20 years of doing the Indie circuit and racking up a whole heap of injuries, you might see some $$$$$!
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    The Wrestling circuit was/is really small. You have LAW which is the widest advertised gym for straight wrestling classes (mostly drills, all filled with Eastern Euros and Pakistanis)

    I found one hidden private school, ran by Sikhs and Muslims. I only found that when I had a knee injury and the Asian guy opposite me with cauliflower ears start looking at me funny...( I also had my UK Wrestling shirt on at the time )

    Most classes now are integrated with MMA clubs, but even then it's listed as something like...TakeDowns for MMA or something similar.

    For fun, during a Freestyle comp, I did do a Cornish Folk rules tourney. Which doesn't last long at all.
     
  18. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    No problem man. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. I know what it's like to be the new wrestling parent. That coach made that video series because he wanted more fans to show up at events. Wrestling has trouble getting popularity because people don't understand the scoring and it puts them off. Once I got the scoring I became a fan right away and love wrestling.
     
  19. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I suppose if you wore a shirt advertisment for Albanian Deep-Sea Fishing it would have generated the same quizzical look. :p
    Which would be similar to taking Boxing for MMA - the Abridged Edition, I would imagine. More left out than included.

    That's something similar to Judo - right? I know its a very old style but that's about all I know.

    You're spot on. That's entirely it. From what I've seen its a small but highly dedicated cadre of parents and coaches. They all seem to know each other and all seem to be very involved in helping run things.

    I was quite surprised to find out how involved it is - all of the comps and tourneys as well as the practices...the traveling involved...3 practices during the week, a comp at another school during the middle of the week and then the USAW beginners tournament every Sunday - whew!

    When he was on the football team the past season, they had about the same number of practices but the number of games is about a quarter of the number of wrestling meets and they weren't expected to travel for football games at that age - they were all very local.

    I don't know how I'm gonna manage it. My older son returned to boxing this past week so I've to manage getting him over to that place at least a couple of times a week and the wife's in the PRC now...

    Maybe that's why it's not as popular! I really like what I see and my son does as well - the skills he will have to learn and put to use are made to order for him but its gonna be rough managing the time and logistics.

    Are your kids wrestling for their school or otherwise under the State/School umbrella? Are they part of USA Wrestling and its State charter - familiar with how USA Wrestling, the State Wrestling charter and the various school wrestling programmes intersect and work?

    Anyroad, thanks again for the info!
     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    The Asian dude basically looked and me and went..
    "Wrestler!"
    Thinking he was just shouting random words I retorted with..
    "Giraffe!"
    Conversation went well from there.

    Cornish is more similar to jacketed Sumo.
    Both competitors hold on with an over/under and lock hands.
    First to have their hold broken, fall over loses.
    Usually its in a type of Gi.
    Best 2 out of 3 in a match.
    *side note. First time I did it, I was up against a BB Judoka and I was 4 wrestling matches in. I touched the ceiling......of a basketball court.....of an open arena.....feet first.
     

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