CMA Evolution and Forms

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by onyomi, Mar 4, 2006.

  1. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Recently people were discussing how it was better to just find the basic things that work and do them over and over than to try to learn too much flowery stuff as evidence for why modern Muay Thai is better than CMA. This lead me to think about how the "mother of Northern Longfist" (and Northern Longfist is the "mother of Northern CMA"), Taizu Longfist, used to be called "The twelve postures." That is to say, what the Song Emperor, Taizu codified and taught to his troops was actually a set of only twelve simple moves. These moves were really simple--things like, punch, kick, elbow, knee, arm-bar, throw, elbow break, etc. This was taught to the Song and Ming armies and is considered the basis of northern CMA.

    In contrast, the modern (no, not Wushu) form of Taizu Longfist is a set of seven forms, each of about fifty moves. They're very expansive, pretty looking forms which are chock full of applications and great training methods if you know where to look, but which could quite easily be mistaken for a bunch of useless "flower fists and embroidery legs." Where did all this stuff come from? Well, some people with a lot of fighting experience using these twelve basic moves gradually thought of a bunch of different ways to use them. They kept finding new and better ways to apply these basic twelve moves and they didn't want to forget them. So, they started making more and more complex forms to codify their experience. To these forms they added bits designed to double as physical training (i.e. without much specific fighting application) and they also made a lot of the moves really big and pretty, both for the purpose of "training long, using short" and also to hide the nastier applications of the moves from random observers who might try to steal their tricks. Basically, the forms became like a warrior's diary of what worked and how to practice. But without that warrior explaining his handwriting to you, to just read the diary would do you little good.

    Even Praying Mantis, a system that now includes at least 100 bare-handed forms, is said to have all begun with the one form Beng-bu, a relatively simple form of less than 50 moves. So basically what I'm saying is that when you do CMA forms it's like reading Muhammad Ali's notebook of what worked for him. Of course, just reading his notebook doesn't mean you'll be able to fight anything like Muhammad Ali. I think this also answers the question of why CMAs seem so excessively complicated: the CMA forms are like a big pile of famous fighters' notebooks. Just because you read them all doesn't mean you'll be a great fighter. First, your basics have to be really good and then you can start gradually understanding what these old fighters were talking about. In the case of Longfist, this would mean first learning the basic twelve moves until you could do them in your sleep, with great body mechanics, in the blink of an eye, under pressure, to all kinds of opponents...just twelve moves you just do over and over until they're perfect... why it sounds almost like Muay Thai.

    So basically, I'm yet again being an apologist for CMA by saying: CMA used to be simple, but now it seems overly-complex because the forms we see are basically famous fighters' disertations on their personal favorite methods. If we want to be as effective as these fighters once were then it will begin with a really solid knowledge of the basics and how to apply them under pressure, as it undoubtedly did for them.

    I'm not trying to open another "why doesn't CMA win against Muay Thai" discussion, I just thought it was an interesting idea I'd share with you guys.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  2. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Not all CMAs have hundreds of flowery forms, wing chun has only three unarmed forms that just cover the basic techniques.

    Not all Chinese Martial Artists feel that Muay Thai has done anything other than aquit itself well in the environment for which it was designed. It's a sport, most CMAs aren't sports and cover a lot more ground than 1:1 fighting within a ruleset.

    If you want to win MT competitions, train in MT.

    Does there have to be a new thread on this topic started every day to cover the same ground?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  3. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Okay, didn't mean to start the whole "sport vs. martial art" debate either. I was trying more to give an explanation of why some CMA forms are the way they are. I think its simplicity is one of the reasons (after Bruce Lee, of course) why Wing Chun is so popular among CMA styles in the west.

    With the explanation of the evolution of Longfist I was also trying to break through the stereotype that northern Kung Fu is wild and flowery and Southern Kung Fu is more practical. (I think another reason is that Southern CMAs have been less severe victims of Wushu, especially with Hong Kong staying out of the PRC's "standardizing" influence).
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  4. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    The simplicity is a big selling factor, I don't think that it would have lasted so long just on the Bruce Lee connection, although that was undoubtedly a very significant factor initially.

    I think forms are not that useful if each and every move in those forms isn't understood fully by the practitioner and hasn't been practiced repeatedly against a resisting opponent. In this day and age where most people only practice for a couple of evenings a week those martial arts that consist of dozens of complex forms do run the risk of simply teaching their students a well choreographed dance, so that they can add another tick to their list of things they have to cover before gradings.

    That doesn't invalidate the forms as they were probably taught at a very different pace with practitioners working their way through them over a lifetime rather than the three or four years that people typically expect to spend getting to a black sash these days.

    I don't think the problem is with the styles, it's just the way the styles have been adapted to suit Western culture.
     
  5. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I agree. I wasn't trying to decry any CMA style or its forms. I happen to be a practitioner of one of the biggest, most form-crazy arts out there, Praying Mantis--and I love the hundreds of variations and different types of training all those forms provide. The huge depth of CMA styles is one of the biggest things about them that appeal to me. I just wanted to offer a possible explanation to people who think CMAs have become too complex or flowery as to how CMAs got to be like that. My answer to people who think the complex forms are useless is: "you're trying to read Shakespeare when you haven't got your ABCs down yet."
     
  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    You could do with lightning up a bit Bil Gee personally I thought onyomi's post was quite interesting and was doing anything but bringing up the old sport vs. street debate. And not to be harsh but you do have some romantic notions about how people practiced in the past... I agree with your oft expressed sentiment that a few evenings a week does not make you an invincible fighter but mythical histories aside the idea that people in the past or outside of the West were training all day everyday just isn't true. There are exceptions of course particularly when people earn a living from fighting (i.e. in sports) but for the most part the past or 'outside of the West' is just fertile ground for exagerrated stories.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  7. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    OK I did jump on Onymomi a bit too quickly, fair enough.

    The reality is that today most people who do martial arts practice them for just a few weeks, a smaller number stick with them for a few months and a very small number stick with them for years. This is different to how CMAs were practiced initially when you had to make a little more commitment than popping down to your local leisure centre and signing up for a class. It was more of a serious commitment and not one that people would walk away from as easily or anonymously as they do today.

    I agree that CMAs are full of exagerated stories and plain lies about supernatural powers, it was part of the culture and to some extent still is. But that doesn't alter the fact that attitudes to training as with many undertakings were typically a lot more serious and a lot more long term. Once accepted into a school it would have not been an option just to not turn up when you felt like it, and living in a village with no cable TV and no playstations etc there weren't really that many alternative pasttimes available.
     
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Overall I concur ;).
     
  9. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    And no e-mail, voice mail, office conferences, personnel problems, or tax paperwork either. :D

    Now I know why everyone, monks to the Gracies and Machados, went to the mountains to train--to get anyway from society! :D
     
  10. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    My shifu said the same thing. I once asked him: "it seems that Chinese martial arts are so complex. How could an average Chinese citizen have the time to practice enough to really understand and get good at them?" He said, "every night they had time, lots of time." No TV, no internet, no nothing but you and your friends. Scholars might have practiced calligraphy by candlelight, but that was only a tiny percentage of the population. If you hung out with other martial artists you would probably have gotten tons of practice with one other just out of sheer boredom.
     
  11. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Reminds me of a point an instructor made while teaching us to use the dao (Chinese broadsword). He was going over the characteristics and use of the weapon and explaining why the blade is like this and the pommel is like this and he stops and says here's something to think about: The chances that any of us will ever have to use this weapon to defend ourselves is almost non-existant, but for the people who gave us this knowledge it was a very real possibility.

    How motivated do you think those people were to learn this stuff? Look at it form their perspective: On the other side of those hills in the distance are a group of people training with similar weapons and they want to kill you; now, how motivated are you?

    Thinking about the motivations for an art can put a whole new spin on things.
     
  12. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Onyomi, does each form in Nan Tong Long cover completely differing fighting philosophies, strategies, and movements?

    I'm not sure about other Northern/Southern styles, but in Choy Lee Fut, the forms are rather. . . simple.

    We do have a lot of them, that's for sure. There are over 100 recorded forms in CLF, spanning across the 3 (or 4, if you count us as a semi-family) branches.

    All of the forms I know are essentially variations of the 10 Seeds: Gwa, Sau, Biu, Jang, Kum, Kup, Chop, Ding, Chuen, and Ching Jee.

    We do this over and over and over in different combinations, directions, angles, etc. . . .but in the end, they are still the 10 Seeds.

    Which is why, the majority of CLF players will scoff if you say you need to learn any more than approximately 10 or so forms. . . . there's no POINT learning that many. After a certain amount, you begin to accumulate enough knowledge to understand the workings of your style, the philosophy, and the context of each form. After understanding the context of that particularly form, you now pretty much have an idea of when to use what, etc.

    Of course some forms are more "advanced" than others, but I think this has more to do in terms of movement rather than "fighting theory."

    Examples:

    Siu Mui Fah (Small Plum Blossom Fist) - Basic fighting set. No clear "philosophy" behind it. . . just straight up fighting using CLF's 10 seeds.

    Tet Jin Kuen (Circle Out Fist) - Anti-multiple attacker form. It teaches you CLF's theory vs. multiple attackers.

    Siu Mui Fah Chaak Kuen - This is the 2-man version of Siu Mui Fah (and not, it's not a repetition of the single-man form at all). It teaches you the applications of CLF, and you learn some interesting things regarding your moves. It also works on developing your sense of range and timing.

    Ng Ying Kuen (Five Animal Fist) - This teaches you to better understand the Five Animals.

    Out of all these forms, you constantly see the 10 Seeds. Actually, these forms aren't really all that different. Five Animals is more of its own thing since it focuses on all 5 Animals, but still, there is the huge emphasis on the Leopard applications, as seen in the Chop Choys and Chuen Ahn Choys (both of which are panther fist strikes) and virtually zero snake and dragon. Tiger/Crane comes in second.

    Peace

    So
     
  13. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    The reason PM has so many forms is because of the so-called "18 Families." According to legend, Wang Lang first created the form Xiao Huyan (some people claim it's a more recent creation, but the tradition at my school, at least, is that Xiao Huyan came first). This form has elements of Longfist and Mantis--a kind of proto-Mantis. This would make sense since Wang Lang is supposed to have studied Shaolin/Longfist martial arts.

    Later in his life Wang Lang is said to have created Beng Bu, the first purely Mantis form. This form contain all twelve of the "Twelve Character Principles," which are the essential elements of Praying Mantis hand techniques. I would guess the "Twelve Character Principles" are probably somewhat similar to the "Seeds" of CLF. They show up everywhere in PM forms and have countless variations.

    Even later in life, Wang Lang is supposed to have met with 18 masters of different styles and synthesized all of their arts into his Praying Mantis system. This is where Praying Mantis gets huge. The base of Praying Mantis is supposed to be Taizu Longfist, so some PM practitioners (myself included) actually practice Taizu Longfist as a supplement/base for their PM. Then there the "Long-armed Ape" forms like "White Monkey Exits the Cave," White Monkey Steals Peaches" and "White Monkey Presents Fruit." These employ a different kind of footwork and are very nimble. They also use a kind of "inch jin" to tense twice in one motion. So, in order to be a "complete" Mantis practitioner you have to study the Monkey forms, especially their footwork.

    Then there is Six Harmony, also known as "Rou-gong men" which makes use of yet another kind of footwork and a "soft jin." There are the Mandarin Duck Kicking techniques, which are like sets of rapid kicking combinations. There are the Plum Blossom hand techniques, which are like rapid arm combinations. There are also the Cotton Palm conditioning and striking techniques, falling and groundfighting techniques, etc. Naturally, as time went on and more and more new masters practiced, they would naturally add their own forms to the increasingly huge corpus of PM. Of course, whether all those 18 arts were really absorbed by the one person, Wang Lang, or whether it happened over a century or more is pretty much a mystery.

    So basically, Praying Mantis takes about 18 different martial arts the size of Wing Chun and puts them all together. This is another reason Mantis, originally one martial art, started breaking into different lineages. There's simply so much of it that people naturally started to specialize in different parts of it. You don't need to even come close to mastering them all to be an effective fighter, though studying different ones can give you a more complete understanding of the art. Even my shifu, who has been studying PM for over 40 years, says he is only confident in his mastery of about 9 of the 18. He says he doesn't know of anyone living who has mastered them all.

    If you had a really good understand of just Beng Bu you could be an effective fighter. There is definitely overlap in the forms of Mantis. To some extent the newer forms, like Zhaiyao (summary forms) are kind of like expositions of various masters on what kinds of combinations worked for them. You don't need to study all the forms out there by any means. Half the reason my Shifu knows so many forms is more for the purposes of research than to necessarily make him an even better fighter.

    To some extent, all the forms are also kind of like a buffet. No one can eat it all. You learn a lot of them and naturally find certain techniques that feel more natural or powerful or suited to your body-type, then naturally work on refining those areas more and more and ultimately incorporating them into your sparring arsenal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2006
  14. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    Not much to comment on, but here are some piece of logic that id like to mention regarding to the understanding of forms and its complexity.

    The fighters compiled the forms we are learning. Youve stated that much.

    Which assumes that:
    1- the fighter knew how to fight beforehand without forms because of real experience
    2- that the fighter codified his personal expression of fighting
    3- from 2, this assumes that fighting is a personal expression of an individual which is not necessarily bound by philosophical theories because we do not exactly know what kind of individual he is.

    Second, youve said that they needed forms not to forget. Are we sure of that?
    1- This assumes that this fighter suffers from alzheimer disease
    2- Or this assumes that this fighter is a teacher
    3- From 2, this assumes that the teacher wants his student to learn in the most efficient way.

    To forget what exactly?
    1- free movement technique?
    2- Clinch technique?
    3- Ground technique?

    How do you codify free movement technique considering the following?
    1- Unbound limited movement
    2- The existence of the most efficient SOLO exercice called shadowboxing or single drills.
    3- From 2, codifying free movement technique goes against efficiency any teacher would strive for.

    How about clinch and ground technique?
    1- Bound limited movement
    2- FreeForm shadowboxing clinch and ground technique solo exercice is not possible due to requirement of a training partner which poses the restriction of movement.
    3- From 2, a need for codifying the hypothetical presence of an absent clinching partner (note that a clinch can be represented by simple contact on a person) for solo training exercice.

    Conclusions:
    1- Real fighting is necessary
    2- Forms == shadowboxing techniques in clinch and ground range
    3- Look outside the box.

    These argument drastically simplifies the so called 'complex' and 'hard to use' forms. Because:

    All techniques are bound by principles, bio mechanical as well as scientific laws. Understand the principle, and the technique is a particular instance or expression of that principle.

    Paraphrased by Ueshiba, also the following from his also holds (roughly from memory):

    Understand the ingrained principles, and make up your own form.

    Note that ueshiba did come from a 'classical' background with forms and such. So dont take it lightly.
     
  15. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Using your own descriptions, if Muay Thai is considered to be a "sport" primarily, then there is a lot of things that most Chinese Martial Artists need to learn from sportsmanship.

    Because as far as I've known, Muay Thai is incredibly effective. Whilst many CMA'ists that I keep meeting...are not in comparison.

    Sure, Muay Thai has its setbacks, like any martial art. But it's the job of the practitioner to fill in these holes.
     
  16. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    While its true that with in our system there are quite a few forms (20+) the base (not basic) form contains pretty much every part of our art. Practicing that alone (with sparring, pad/bag work and conditioning obviously) gives you a good command of the whole art.

    Why are most CMA so flowery and unrealistic in their applications? Because they have developed to the point where they are more about acrobatics than actual fighting.
     
  17. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    We covered this ground at the beggining of this thread, this is not what this thread is about, please don't spoil it again, the debate that you want is going on in at least three other threads on the forum. If you want to take issue with what I'm saying take issue with it on one of those other threads.
     
  18. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    These aren't most traditional CMAs, they are most modern Wushu forms. I think one thing that gives this impression is Northern Longfist. Despite the fact that Northern Longfist is considered a "basic" or "fundamental" style that a lot of stylists study before moving on to their "real" art, not only is Longfist a stand-alone art, but it's actually one of the most difficult to really understand because of the way the forms are designed. This is because Longfist is "an-quan," ("dark fist") which means that you can only see maybe 10% of its possible applications by looking at the form. For the rest you need a qualified instructor to explain it to you and then to also drill all those hidden moves in a more realistic manner before you will be able to really use them.
    If you tried to use almost any Longfist moves "as-is" in a real fight you would get your butt kicked because the moves are too expansive, graceful and slow.

    Longfist is actually one of the most representative Northern CMA styles. Northern Shaolin styles are all basically Northern Longfist styles, and in many people's minds, Shaolin practically=Kung Fu, making it almost as though Longfist forms=Kung Fu. The problem is the moves in Longfist forms ARE useless as they are. They were designed to be that way. Praying Mantis, in contrast doesn't do too much to specifically hide its applications, but still requires significant alteration for most moves from a form to be usable in a fight. Mostly, the moves must be faster, higher and make maximum use of the waist. Of course, you won't see all the possible applications in PM form just by watching it, but it doesn't do too much to purposely hide it (making it "ming quan" or "bright fist").

    Someone might ask, "well, why practice forms at all then, if the moves have to be drilled individually anyway?" I think there are several reasons. One, forms are good physical conditioning. Two, they're a good way to keep a large number of moves straight in your head. Three, they get you to flow through multiple moves very rapidly, so that you will get the feeling of "flow." Four, once you've got a move "down" by practicing it in a form many times, you will find it really quite easy to turn that move into an application if your shifu just shows you how.

    I think the other problem is that people sometimes think CMAs=forms all day, which is just not true. Forms practice should only occupy maybe 30% of your time at most. The rest can be used for shadow boxing, pair drills, conditioning, sparring, etc.

    As to why we need the moves designed to hide the applications--I don't really think we do, since we no longer feel the need to keep our bare-handed fighting techniques a secret. It's just traditional. I personally will do my forms in a more realistic, less flowery manner a lot of the time, trying to make the applications more evident and realistic. Though it does look pretty and is good physical conditioning to do the really big, flowery version occasionally.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2006
  19. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I think the most important one is pair drills - I get 90% of my goodie out of that type of training.

    Forms should absolutely be the skill base that you set out to get good at (IMO), especially when they have pair applications. You should have a teacher who teaches these applications. In my opinion, the teaching of a form should encompass 2 things. First, the teaching and drilling of all the techniques and skill sets in the form. Second, the actual teaching of the form. Like all things in CMA, the forms are all teaching tools. Either you make them availiable to yourself, or you don't.
     
  20. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Our training is reasonably structured and based around the wing chun forms. When you are doing the first form you focus on drills practicing first form movements and then work on incorporating them in to live situations. Through the four SLT gradings each technique from the form is fully tested so that you demonstrate that you have a full understanding of its application.

    Used this way I find forms a very useful tool, allowing you to go through a series of techniques that you have practiced in an "alive" way on a number of occassions, understand properly and are able to apply. I think if any of those things is missing though the form becomes a pointless piece of choreographed dancing.
     

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