Claim that GM Cacoy and GM Diony are FAKE / Certificates from the dead

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Peter Lewis, Aug 29, 2009.

  1. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Mabuhay

    If it were not so serious, it would be hilarious.

    The following is part of a heated discussion on YouTube concerning the authenticity and accuracy of lineage within the Dacayana Eskrima system. The writer is an Italian student of GM A. Dacayana named Claudio:

    "..before talk..please talk about dionisio canete or cacoy canete..the real fake of escrima tradiional..."

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyAOeVZjSU8"]YouTube - Challenging Dax Eskrima Kali Arnis - Stronzate Artista Albert Dax Dacayana[/ame]

    The video footage on YouTube shows certificates which may have 'questionable' origin. For example, a certificate signed by GM Filemon Caburnay of Lapunti Arnis de Abaniko in December 1992...long after the death of GM Caburnay.

    Clearly, such issues and claims are potentially very damaging not only to the Dacayana, San Miguel, Doce Pares and Lapunti systems, but to the FMA in general. Lessons to be learned here include:

    1. To writers of information posted on the internet - BE HONEST, BE ACCURATE AND LEAVE POLITICS OUT

    2. To readers of such information - BELIEVE NOTHING UNTIL YOU ARE SURE...CROSS CHECK ANY INFORMATION THAT IS QUESTIONABLE

    In closing, I would point out that I believe that this has nothing to do with Master Jun Dacayana, with whom I have directly contacted about these public claims.

    Gumagalang

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2009
  2. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    First off all I would like to point out that I have no problem with Master Jun Dacayana and his organisation and I am in no way directing any comments about this to him or his Group as I have talk to him personally in detail about this stupid film on Youtube.

    What I do have a problem with is ignorant students such as Claudio who go around making these outlandish claims that it is he that knows the real truth and that personalities and great Masters of the art such as SGM Cacoy and SGM Dionisio Canete are fakes but yet what he does is the real deal.

    This is a stupid boy trying to make a name for himself off of the back of other peoples reputations and he is trying to re-write history.

    He clearly states himself that GM Filemon Caburany died in 1995 and that is why the certificate of 'Grand Master' was signed in 1992 when in fact he died in 1991. I know this for certain simply because I was training in Cebu in January 1992 with the Lapunti Group and GM Ondo Caburnay the son of the late GM Filemon Caburnay.

    Also with regards to the Doce Pares Certificate which is said to be for a 5th DAN and at te same time there are the claims that SGM Cacoy is fake, well if this idiot had taken the time to do some real research he would know that the certificates at that time where signed by GM Momoy Canete, GM Yoling Canete and GM Cacoy Canete. So in effect if as he claims that SGM Cacoy is a fake then surely the certificate is not real as it is apparently signed by a fake?

    This supid boy is trying to make out that it is only his group that knows the real FMA and it's history and by that everyone else is wrong, he even goes on to say that SGM Tatang Ilustrisimo came after Doce Pares and that Doce Pares was formed in 1933????? And uses the Bahad Zubu Logo for Tatang's group????

    Very few people realise that if you trace the lines far back enough, SGM Momoy Canete and SGM Tatang Ilustrisimo trained with the same group too, so even they have indirect links as do many of the FMA groups around the Philippines.

    It is a sad thing when one stoops to trying to use othere peoples hard earned reputations to try and create one of their own instead of working to earn their own reputation, it soils the name of those mentioned and all other people involved in the FMA.

    Unfortunetly people like this beleive their own hype, but they forget one important rule, that the FMA is a small word and everyone knows everyone. And make these claims in the internet and guess what, we all have computors too and have access to what is right and what is wrong.

    What also surprises me is that whilst this stupid boy makes these stupid outlandish insults he himself has never even considered researching what is true and what is not and has never travelled to the Philippines to find out first hand for himself.

    I think this boy should be treated in the same way he treats the great names of the FMA, with total disrespect. It is such as shame that he is with his stupidity soiling the good name of the Dacayana group who are striving to pass on their own knowledge to willing practioners and people should realise that it is not they who are spreading this BS, just some stupid boy who is linked to them trying to make a name for himself by spreading lies.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  3. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Also pause the video at 0:46 and take a close look at the Doce Pares certificate, you will see in the bottom right hand corner the signature of SGM Cacoy, also look at the certificate carefully, you can see that it is some what faded all around (which means it is probabley from a picture) yet the name of the awardee is far clearer than any other part of the certificate??? It is also strange that the glare on the glass from the picture frame seems to show across all the other letters on the certificate except for the ones that have obviously been superimpossed on top. A sure sign that this has been played around with.

    If your going to play around and add things in to pictures then you should be sure that everything in that picture should hold the same focus.

    The least he could have done was fake it properly huh!

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2009
  4. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    The video above is in responce to this one which makes the false claims:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPF9JYu812o"]YouTube - WWW.ESCRIMADAX.COM - HISTORY OF ESCRIMA -[/ame]
     
  5. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Then followed by this one

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLbu2RniBfY"]YouTube - WWW.ESCRIMADAX COM - THE CHALLENGE -[/ame]
     
  6. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    **sigh**

    gone are the days that a man made his reputation by fighting.
     
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    ***sigh***

    It is a sad state of affairs but all too often nowadays, people seem to latch on to one of the FMA greats who have past on and use their good reputation to somehow try to build their own, instead of doing what the old timmers done, which was go out and forge their own reputation through hard work and time served.

    I have been amazed on just how many people are latching on the the great names such as GM Momoy lately and laying claim to be the only ones??? The Original this and the authentic this???? But when you look deeper into what they are, they are people who have spent no real time learing what they claim to own.

    That is bad enough, but then to go on and insult his brothers, nephews and children in the same breath just shows how little respect they actually have for the man who's name they are laying claim to. These are not true FMA'ers, they are just low life individuals looking to make a quick buck off of other peoples hard work and they should be ashamed of themselves.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And if you look at the clip above they claim that GM Kano Canete only learn't Shotokan Karate from his father???

    This does not look like any Shotokan I have ever seen? What do you think?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZTGsO7i2kQ"]YouTube - Interview With A Master (Episode 2)[/ame]

    And you can see a distict difference between this clip and the movements in the clips above.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And no Shotokan here either

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJbTRh_sE8Q"]YouTube - Doce Pares Orihinal - Grandmasters 2003[/ame]
     
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And of course this cant be San Miguel either because this looks nothing like the clips above that are claiming to be San Miguel too???

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc-U5RB9xew"]YouTube - San Miguel Ekrima THE LEGACY CONTINUE[/ame]

    Maybe I should ignore all the training I have had with GM Momoy, GM Kano, GM Diony, GM Sales and others and go train with Claudio huh! as he seems to know more about San Miguel than everyone else in Europe, NOT....
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  11. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Spot the difference.

    This is NOT San Miguel

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qawJz7TM1EI"]YouTube - WWW.ESCRIMADAX.COM - BANCAW - ESTOCADA[/ame]
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And this is

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_-IN2WQkhw"]YouTube - Twist in Cebu - San Miguel Eskrima[/ame]
     
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And then Claudio is surprised when people get angry with him when he spouts this sort of BS

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC6MlGWgxOQ"]YouTube - WWW.ESCRIMADAX.COM - WAY OF SAN MIGUEL[/ame]

    Look at 0:43 he states. And I quote:

    MANY GRAN MASTERS (INCLUDING THE SONS OF MOMOY) DON'T KNOW THE REAL MOVEMENTS OF MOMOY.

    Then at 0:55 he goes on to say. And I quote:

    BUT.... TALK AGAIN ABOUT THE "REAL SAN MIGUEL"..

    THE WORLD OF MARTIAL ARTS IS VERY INCREDIBLE..

    YOU MUST BE ATTENTION.

    DAX

    Incredible is the right word here, incredible that this idiot can spread such BS on the world wide web and expect us to just simply sit back and talk his lies as gospel.
     
  14. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    Hi Pat,

    the comparison between the vids in posts 11 and 12 was my wake up bit of unintentional comedy for the day, and it was the purest of gold.

    So a big thanks from the other side of the world!

    :)

    paul
     
  15. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    ...who tell this to do this horrible things,probably his teacher.
     
  16. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin Valued Member

    hey Peter...I'm curious did this claudio guy got punished?
     
  17. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Hey Tesujin

    I don't think so.

    The Dacayana system seems to have attracted attention because of a number of claims made and Claudio most certainly has helped to fuel this.

    Gumagalang

    Peter
     
  18. Marcie

    Marcie Valued Member

    Hi all

    I would like to make it clear that the Dacayana Eskrima System Philippines and Dacayana UK (both organisations headed by Master Jun Dacayana who is based in Cebu) make no claims regarding other systems, do not criticise other groups or systems and only want to extend our friendship to other groups and promote unity in the FMA throughout the world.

    I would further add that any discussion on youtube, or any other forum that criticises another system does not originate from Master Jun Dacayana, Dacayana Philippines or any member of Dacayana UK and it is Jun’s express wish that he is not included in these discussions.

    The system taught and promoted by Dacayana Philippines and Dacayana UK is Master Jun’s own development. More details can be found either on our website; www.dacayanaeskrima.com or our facebook group (Dacayana UK)

    I hope that clarifies the situation from our point of view, and I would like to extend my best wishes to all practitioners of FMA around the world.

    Best wishes
    Marcie
     
  19. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    That is great clarity indeed and I think we have all realised that this is the case and it is just a case of one silly individual (student) in Italy that is trying to cause bad feeling.

    I must also clarify that it in no way reflects on the talent and skill of Master Jun Dacayana who is promoting his groups.

    More power to you and all in the Dacayana Eskrima Organisation.

    Deepest respects

    Pat
     
  20. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin Valued Member

    Hey all..I mean no disrespect..but I'm a Filipino..what this claudio did come's to me as an insult..I mean..I just started studying arnis ( got tired of taekwondo lol )..to me..what he did is kinda insulting..to undermine the grandmasters..I mean..the canete brothers fought during WWII..and I have the utmost respect for them..if this guy didnt get punished..he may continue spreading this lies..hey..this is just my opinion..but if he ever do this again..I dont know what kind of effect it would have on FMA..

    Kill or be Killed..
     

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