Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Williel, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Was there any special advantage to running his own practice rather than pitching-in with others?

    Best Wishes,

  2. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Now I am curious about what seems to be incorrect use of Korean and Japanese terminology. On the page listing GM Platten, he called the art Kong Shin Ryu, and the name listed for this "monk" is Jee In Pak, is this the same man and style? GM Timmerman listed it as Kong Shin Bop with the name GM Pak In Shuyk.
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I took a look at the home page ( and the rest of the site. It looks pretty good - I especially like the photos. There are a few things on the main page you may wish to edit, juts to avoid any sort of controversy down the road:

    You might wish to change the term 'combat Hapkido' to something like "practical self defense" or "Hapkido self defense" or "Hapkido based self defense" or something.

    "Combat Hapkido" immediately makes people think of GM Pellegrini's "International Combat Hapkido Federation" ( People who are looking for that system might be disappointed in finding out that you are not affiliated. At the same time, there are people who may avoid your school because they don't like "Combat Hapkido"... easier to avoid that worry by using a different term.

    When people see the term "Mixed Martial Arts" with captial letters in front of each word, they immediately think of MMA (UFC especiallY) - the sport oriented martial art geared for competition in the ring (or octagon). Using that term will bring people to your dojang looking specifically for that kind of training and when they find that that isn't what you do, they can harm your reputation (see groups like Bullshido, for example).

    I'd recommend changing it to something like like "Our art is a hybrid system based on Karate, Chinese Kempo, Hapkido & Jiujitsu" or "Our art emphasizes cross training in Karate, Chinese Kempo, Hapkido & Jiujitsu"
  4. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Iaido = 居合道 = Kuhapdo (geo hap do) = 거합도

    So yes, the words mean the same thing. And if I am not mistaken the kuhapdo people do have contacts with Japanese iaido masters. Right Kevin?
    But lets not forget that there are a lot of iaido-styles out there.

    aikido = 合気道 = 合氣道 = hapkido = 합기도
    So again yes, the words mean the same thing. But not, hapkido and aikido are not the same martial arts. And both martial arts have been 'split up' in a lot of styles with big differences in between those styles.

    Sabum(nim) = 師範 = 사범 (I have let the nim out of the hanja and hangeul)
    Sensei = 先生
    So no, they are not the same words.
  5. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Yes, we have a very strong connection to the Muso Jikiden Groups in Japan, and the style name is ChungSuk Kuhapdo.

    And I am very glad you listed the difference between Sabum(nim) and Sensei - not the same word and not the same meaning.

    Klaas, did you take a stab at the meaning of Chukidokwan? With so much confusion with some words here, wonder if it has different meaning to someone with better Korean vocabulary than mine.

    Willie, do you know more specifically when and where GM Platten trained with Choi Dojunim? He claims to have trained for three months in the late 1970's which would make his experience pretty unique. As by this time Choi Dojunim had closed his school, and taken up teaching at the Jungki Kwan with Grandmaster Lim full time, I was wondering if he remembered Grandmaster Lim? Also it would be great to see a photo from this time as there are so few of Choi Dojunim.
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Mmmmm......I tend more towards the conservative side of things in the area of MA, so understand if I say I am experiencing a LOT of "red flags". IMHE I have seen far too many people wanting to start their own shop so as to be all things to all people and garner the revenues therefrom.

    In the past I have seen close relationships between Japanese, Korean and Chinese arts but I place a line between the natural recombitant nature of Culture and that of the individuals' decision to take a "bit of this and a bit of that". There are a huge number of cases where people decided to start their own organization. This prompts the question of what the person who starts the organization will do when their students start to break off and start THEIR own organization?

    Best Wishes,

  7. Williel

    Williel New Member

    Yes, I think Thomas is right that some wordings in our web-page is misleading and I will convince my GM to correct them. Thanks for the recommendation. To answer Klaasb's question on "Sensei" and "Sabumnim", Sensei is just a teacher but Sabumnim is a higher level teacher. Sabumnim could be a dean or a head teacher but in Korea they address a teacher as a sabumnim. I do agree that it is not the same meaning but loosely use for the same sense. Sometimes we in orient when we want to flatter someone we would address him/her higher as a professor even thought he/she is not. I am always interested in Kendo and Iiado but never had the time to do it. GM Chuck knows GM Timmerman and I was told by a colleague of mine they trained together under GM Pak.

    It is great to talk to you guys that things are unfolding itself and I am impressed that all of you take the art hapkido seriously.

    My best regards......Willie
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I think you need to take a couple of steps back, Willie. From what you are writing I get the impression you need to do some research into the KMA....and not just the representation as "KMA".

    Best Wishes,

  9. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    No frankly what is more TROUBLING is that you don't have a clue what Hapkido is, or apparently what even constitutes Hapkido.

    Please find out about the three month training with Choi Dojunim, I am very curious, sounds too amazing to be true.
  10. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    The word in Korea that is commonly used for teacher (in a school setting) is seonsaengnim (선생님 先生) which does correspond with sensei.
    I would rather translate 'sabeom' to instructor.

    Giving a translation of the chukido without having hanja is already very tricky, in this case I don't even have the hangeul (is it: 추기도, 주기도, 주키도, 추키도 or 처기도??? just to name a few)
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I was thinking, Willie, that you may be feeling that we are being a bit hard on you and I hope you will not take this as some sort of personal Snipe Hunt.

    My personal experience in the Hapkido arts has been that there are far more people in the KMA who profess to teach a Hapkido art than have actually trained under a recognized student of the late CHOI Yong Sul or even have an authentic lineage. The Hapkido arts can be one of the single most challenging arts to learn, can be very uncomfortable and tedious and is not always evenly represented across the glode. As a result it is not at all uncommon for someone to represent what they do as a Hapkido art when it is only a pale copy. In the open market, this is probably not a problem. However if you bump into someone who has dedicated a couple of decades to preserving and promoting authentic Hapkido you will commonly be expected to substantiate the claim.

    Just sayin'.

    Best Wishes,

  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hello all,

    After re-reading GM Platten's bio, he also claims to be the successor to GM Pak's Kong Shin Bup Style. I thought that was GM Timmerman's claim.

    Any thoughts?
  13. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I believe GM Timmerman frequents this forum occasionally under the moniker Saja. Perhaps someone could PM him?
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    IMHE I tend to hold with the guy who works the hardest to "keep the faith". AFAIK Master Timmerman has been one of those rare folk who have been able to consistently promote his practice without "selling out". The NKMAA has KSB at its core, but a person need not necessarily train in that specific art in order to become an NKMAA member.

    There is also "Korean Martial Arts Brotherrhood" (KMAB) which has as members folks from a few different arts. So it is possible to respect one's core art while maintaining a level of tolerance for members who train in a different fashion. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  15. Williel

    Williel New Member

    Thanks for the tips, Bruce. I heard a lot of good things about GM Timmerman, specially in techniques wise. I never confronted my GM about who is the successor of the association. Correct me if I am wrong KSB is not a style but an association. To me, possibly GM Timmerman is more active in maintaining the association but our GM just branched out to form his own club, not an association. I am curious what happened but it is not my position to question my GM. The only thing I know is my GM met GM Pak in Germany when GM Chuck was in a Canadian gymnastic team when he was a teenager.
    GM Pak invited him to train in Hapkido because he saw the talent in him. Also, as a youth in Canada he trained under Sensei Tsuroka, the father of Canadian karate when Sensei Tsuroka, a Canadian born Japanese returned from Okinawa to introduce the martial arts to Canada in Toronto area.

    I am not a fervent fan of history. What I heard is what I am telling here.

  16. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Greetings all. It's been a while since my last visit here, but a friend suggested that I take a peek at this thread. What I see is not new, nor is it news. GM Platten did study with the late GM Pak, and he started his own organization, called Chuckidokwan, during a time when GM Pak was alive and well. In other words, he LEFT GM Pak to do his own thing. The name of the organization was indeed a take off the name Chuck as well as the name KWAN (as in Glenn Kwan who passed away a few years back). Few people realize that the Kwan part of the name is simply the last name of the other partner. As far as GM Platten being the inheritor of KSB, I simply ask one thing. IF he was indeed the inheritor, what has he done to promote it? Since GM Pak is not here to have his say, we can only rely on WHAT IS rather than the he say she say. All one has to do is google the names, and the picture fast become clear. Actual history is hard to ignore.
  17. Williel

    Williel New Member

    Hi Master Timmerman, I am indeed very honor to have your involved in this thread. GM Platten formed the organization Chukidokwan, not Chuckidokwan. As a matter of fact long time ago I printed my business card using Chuckidokwan and he corrected me. Chuk in Korean means genuine or true. As of "Kwan", I knew Sensei Kwan since the early 70's up until his passing. We did have a discussion on the name "Kwan". Being half Chinese and half Caucasian he was curious about what his Chinese name meant. I remember he told me he did help GM Platten to form the system but the word kwan meant "school" and it was just a coincident with his last name. This is also the reason why Chukidokwan has some Chinese Kempo in it because of Sensei Kwan's influence. Like I said I hold high esteem of you, Grand Master Timmerman. I will always, as my up-bringing, respect those who walk the path before me. I respectfully request you to elaborate more on the last two sentences of your post---" become clear. Actual history is hard to ignore" I am guessing like most of the oriental, GM Pak hardly documented anything. I just wish he was in this electronic era that we can youtube, DVD video or Skype all his techniques and what not.....I never claim I know Hapkido and this is the very reason I joined this forum to be educated. Humbly and Respectfully Yours....Willie
  18. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Hello Sir Williel. I guess we were told different stories, and the person who told me his story is now gone; hence there is no way I can back it up. I was a good friend of Sensei Kwan, as we ran in the same circles (the late Bob Dalgleish) back in the early 70s. Glenn told me that he and GM Plattend had formed a new style, and his explanation was that the name reflected the names of the two people who formed the style. I do not know enough of the Korean language to interpret your version of it, so I can't comment on that explanation. My comment on the history of KSB reflects my reluctance to become involved yet another time on who was designated the inheritor of KSB. I leave it to those who are interested to find out for themselves who has done the work to keep KSB alive after the passing of GM Pak. It is an exercise in futility, as the folks involved will never accept any other version than what they believe in. Suffice it to say that a quick check of Canadian Government records will prove that I had the name KSB registered in the early 80s. My goal in life is to train and work hard to share what I have learned, and I consider these online flame wars a waste of my time. At my age, time has become a very important issue, as there is so little of it and so much to share. I wish you well Sir, and I too am sad at the lack of documentation. GM Pak was one of THE most accomplished technique men of that era, and his knowledge on that subject lives through those who took the time to learn from him. I can only hope my contributions to keeping his art alive are worthy, and all I can do is my best.
  19. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    I still don't see how Chuk (죽 or 축) can mean genuine or true.
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks Master Timmerman.....As you are well aware I don't really have a place in the KSB group. My only reason for commenting at all is that you touch on a very sensitive subject for me....that of Leadership Succession.

    People who have been in the KMA community for any time, or are particularly well-informed will know that despite the wide use of terms such as "federation", "union" and "association", practically all KMA organizations are essentially a "sole proprietorship" albeit by another name. The result is that unless there is a family member to takeover the business, organizations usually have tumult when a leader dies. In the matter of the YON MU KWAN, for instance, my late teacher's son and brother have taken control of the WHF...though little is said of the YON MU KWAN itself. Using your criteria, it would certainly follow that in such a case KJN Myung's son is worth of regard as the leader of the WHF for all of his fine work. And, IMHO NOT to have put that energy into the organization would have done a true disservice to KJN Myung's legacy.

    My point? My point is a resounding "amen" to your observation that leadership follows the person who acts in the very best interests of his art and students. When TAKEDA Tokimune passed there was considerable in-fighting for the position of "ownership" of the tradition. I think its telling that leadership of his organization fell not to relatives but to a trusted MA who is now accepted as the heir to that tradition based on the great good KONDO Sensei has done over the years.

    In the immediate sense, thank you for commenting. In the much larger sense thank you for all that you have done for your art. I think we know where the actual leadership is. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,


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