pardon? Ummm David Ross and Gus were both students under Master Chan Tai San. David was the Si-Hing to Gus and as such would be considered to be more knowledgeable in the styles of Lama Pai and CLF that they studied... So since they both come from the same system the older brother should be able to, and encouraged to, have the younger brother follow the teachings of their sifu. Does that make more sense 19thlohan? Isn't this what you would expect? It is fairly typical of TCMA from what I have seen. The ''outing'' business is a bit silly but I guess if frustration had built up over time that this might be the reason for all this weird publicity (very un chinese!). LFD
So the reason you have that view is because you've encountered a lot of TCMA people terrible at combat. I can accept that. I've met a lot of "MMA guys" who are all talk, no skill, but ride the coattails of what they train (or trained for a little while). That's no different than dropping your lineage and expecting people to be impressed. My point is it's not limited to TCMA. 99% of all martial artists are terrible at combat, including both TMA and MMA. It's not a matter of training efficiently, it's because the endurance and tenacity to take martial arts far enough to be considered "good" is ultra rare. You mean changed his karate to be more like the old school karate, right? The kind that was used in real fighting, as opposed to the modern day strip mall version? There is nothing "modern" about the ring. Martial arts duels are thousands of years old, something often lost on the MMA crowd. MMA didn't invent the ring, did they? So they shouldn't try to take credit for what occurs inside as if it's something new, or as if they invented something new. This is the issue I have. MMA is not a modern thing at all, and it is certainly not "efficient" compared to some of the brutal martial arts in history. To say MMA "evolved" how people punch, kick, throw, and submit...is revisionist thinking. Trust me, people were doing all this stuff just fine a thousand years ago. Some of what they did survives to this day in TMA....but don't blame poor teachers or worse, poor students as to why so much TMA seems "inefficient". Because Cung Le wrote a great book on San Shou. He's never written a book on wrestling or TKD. My point is, Cung Le would tell you the value of TCMA training if you were to ask him. But his idea of what TCMA means would differ vastly from your version. Again we agree. 90% of TCMA folks train terribly. But I'll still argue 90% of MMA folks train terribly too. Just a different kind of terrible. In the former case, maybe it's a matter of understanding where the realism lies and not training to "be real", but to entertain some fantasy. In the latter case, I think it's a matter of taking shortcuts and not respecting the hard work involved in many TCMA disciplines, especially when someone takes them seriously. Too much "took a few MMA lessons now I can beat any TMAer". Hogwash. Here's an example of someone who takes TCMA seriously, as well as his competition training. This man is an amazing Shuai jiao competitor (and breakdancer!). It's important to realize that if we use the 90% figure, or my 99% figure (which is harsher!), this is what the 10%/1% looks like and trains for. Never judge art by the counterfeits and poor copies, imho. There are guys who truly bring TCMA (back) to life. Here is just one example and role model. Let this be your guide as to what TCMA SHOULD look like, instead of using the 90% who are just playing around, to form a baseline. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze79WTtRF9Q"]HUNG GA BOXING -THE ART OF OLD SCHOOL KUNG FU IS STILL ALIVE & STRONG - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExlsQBH3V-E"]some training/footage from cacma shuai jiao grandchampion match - YouTube[/ame]
Wooden Hare, just out of curiosity, what made you choose Hung ga as your martial art of choice to dedicate your time to.
Wow, I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before...here goes. I studied YMCA Shotokan when I was 10 and loved sparring, so when I got to college I took judo. Judo broke my body (well, for a while), and with it my spirit, but not my love of judo. That stuck. Ten years passed, during which time I spent my time not-training to study Chinese and Japanese arts in book form, particularly Chinese poetry, Daoist and Chan philosophy, and even a large number of books about ninjas. Now, I am not going to lie, I love ninjas and for a time I considered joining the Bujinkan, under Jack Hoban. This caused a slight derail into readings on the Life Values ethics of Robert Humphrey, someone Jack suggested. That kept me busy for about 3 more months. Anyway, by this time after having digested so much Buddhist, Daoist, Shinto, and Ninja thought, I decided it was going to be kung fu, or budo taijutsu at Jack's school about an hour away. I investigated budo taijutsu, it's history and associations, controversies, etc....to keep it fair and simple, I figured that I'd probably be happier taking judo again, as opposed to start over in another Japanese art. One day I picked up a book on Qigong and out fell this little red and yellow business card of a retired Marine who happened to be a Hung ga sifu as well as a virtual walking encyclopedia of CMA knowledge, including the meditation, herbalism, bone setting practices... I have to say, when martial artist is not only strong and vital, but knows field techniques for setting broken bones....this is a sifu to live by. Sadly he has moved away now, but we keep in touch and he is helping me complete my training, Yoda style, from a swampy bog light years away (ie Virginia). And that's how I settled on Hung ga, the Universe opened the door at the right moment. It did it again when I was lamenting the loss of my sifu, I struck gold and found a Mundials champion teaching BJJ 13 miles away, whose class includes a night with two other people who are Thai Boxing and JKD instructors. Poor me! NO longer have to look hard to find the best martial arts training on the planet, somehow I was delivered into it..now if only I could find more time for it and escape work more often. These great blessings are an obvious reward from the Jade Emperor and Chang'e the Moon Goddess for my loyalty to martial discipline and pounding the Elixir of Immortality for them...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Not me, I was part of Yee's association in NY/NJ for a few years and then helped run sifu's kwoon privately for a while out of a local boxing gym. He has now moved to another state, but I am organizing a club of his former students so that we can still meet a few times a year, bruise each other for a while, and grab pizza.
Going by personal experience in your average MMA class you will find a handful who have competed in amateur events, and if the class is good enough a few people who have competed in the pro level (ie pro rules even if the payday was very small) , so in a class of 20 people at least 5 or so will have competed and used their skills in a full contact setting, that beats your 99% figure and the rest if they have trained longer than 10 months will have skills they can use in sparring. That’s what I mean by training efficiency, it wont make a fighter out of a non-fighter, but it will allow you to develop your abilities to your fullest. You might not ever fight pro because you lack the athletic skills or time/heart to put in, but you will use the same methods of training as them and learn the same skills you will develop quickly as a fighter and martial artisit even if you only train twicve a week How can you argue its NOT a matter of training efficiency when you say in your next breath don’t judge TCMAs usefulness on the 99% of people doing I but on the 1% who are good, if an art fails 99% of the people taking it then by definition surely the methods used to train that art (if not the art itself) IS inefficient. And it’s a cope out to say it’s the poor teachers and the poor students who make up the bad 99% of what we see in TCMAs fault as to why it has a bad rep, because to be honest that 1% who can make it work (your figures not mine) could probably make morris dancing work in a fight. Any art should be judged on how well it develops all students and not the 1% gifted ones As for 90% of MMA guys training terribly please give examples of what you mean by this, so I can’t be accused of hypocrisy I’ll give examples of what I mean when I say the majority of TCMA schools train inefficiently I mean the following: To much form work in class, reliance on two man forms which are unrealistic in terms of distance and timing, to much static partner work where the attacks and defences are unrealistic in the modern age, not enough live training such as clinch work, ungloved sparring with body shots and padded up sparring allowing headshots etc. Now im not saying these schools DON’T spar, don’t to throw and clinch work, Im saying that because the arts are so all encompassing (throw in weapon work, chi gung, strength training etc) that in the modern age where we don’t have 40 hours a week to train packing all the aboce into 2,3 or 4 hours simply means we don’t develop any real usefull skills quickly These are all things I can personally say I have seen, trained and indeed taught to students over the years. Which all leads to when pressure is put on to not really using what you have been taught in hard sparring or fighting because you simply haven’t done that enough in your day to day training Now you might say this is just me being unlucky and training in bad places when I was younger, and that’s fair enough but if we look on line we see the same things, lots of forms, lots of two man drills, not too much sparring in most classes. And when we do see heavy sparring it tends to not look like how people train (which isn’t very efficient) So what do you consider terrible training that 90% of MMA people and schools do do?
And whilst you say that MMA didn’t invent the ring and these things were going on in china for hundreds of years, the fact is even back then masters who actually had fights were worried about the state of chinese boxing and the spread of forms and the lack of real fighting For example in an interview famed master Wang Xiangzhai, founder of Yiquan, winner of countless full contact fights and leitei matches, and one of the most respected fighters of his generation decried those “practises for many years and flatters oneself by claiming that one alone has accomplished the profound skills” He went on to say “The boxing arts of our nation are in a chaotic state In comparison to an ordinary boxer of our nation, they (western and foreign fighters are countless miles ahead” On the use of forms etc “At large, the numerous schools of our society, generally take the approach of forms and techniques to learn boxing. One must know that this kind practice is just forgery conducted by the later generations, it is not the original essence of combat science. Even though a few people by chance realise some side-mechanics and one-sided techniques, they have not, however, left the methods and forms after all, so it is without avail in the end.” He went on to say how he set up a friendly sparring session, put adds in papers in Beijing and sent word to all the masters in the town so they could come, share knowledge and develop their skills, no one turned up so close to a hundred years ago a well known Chinese fighter was becrying the rise of forms and fixed technique training over fighting, lamenting that no famed master would come and test their skills in combat and worried about the state of combat science in his country...... he also talked about the rise of forms coming after the fighting art started to decline in importance and use And here is an account of a very famous open fighting competition in chaina in 1929 a full contact event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands. Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations; “Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition” Zhao also noted; “Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training” (read boxing and judo) (By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it! ) Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge. At the event Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Dispite this Cao one which a second round knockout, how was this possible, The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. So what does this event tell us? Well firstly over 4 times as many performaces went into the dermo efent than the sparring one (so even at a national event people were happier to perform than fight) secondly that yes sparring competitions were held in china (but were infrequent and a lot of masters didn’t attend), thirdly that those taking part cheated and took boxing in secret because they saw its effectiveness, and, that those that won were the ones who actually sparred a lot, (out of the top three two crossed trained as wrestlers and one did boxing) Finally That people still buried their heads in the sand and either refused to take part, or decried the winners as not looking like or using kung fu (which sounds sadly familiar to anyone who frequents any wing chun forum lol)
1/4th your ratio. Anyone else's experience could be different. I'll bet in some MMA schools, 20/20 compete and in others, 0 compete. That's not the same as the 90/99 percent "rule", which is a generalization about the quality of martial artists personal commitment to training. 90/99 is saying only the most dedicated reach their "full potential" and could truly be called "artists". But anyone can reach that 1%, it's not destiny or anything. IF you put in the hard work, you can hit that 10%/1%. I think the average MMA class in America falls fall short of your standards though. I'll agree plenty of MMA schools produce competition worthy fighters...so do TMA schools. They compete too in various contact settings. You could argue MMA schools do it MORE often or "have better quality control", but that's completely subjective because I'll bet money plenty of MMA schools have terrible quality control and the "more" is just due to popularity. Because there are loads and loads of "efficient" training methods and techniques in TMA. Just because only a certain fraction fall within the realm of MMA training, say, a push kick, doesn't make the entire art "inefficient", it means there are efficient tools for different contexts in the art. IF you study San Shou, you'll know every efficient technique in Kung Fu for the octagon or your average fist fight. If you study Hung Kuen with san da, you'll learn everything in Sanda in addition to other techniques useful outside Sanda, as well as esoteric traditional practices like herbal medicine, wound tending, bone setting, isometrics. If you're not interested in this stuff fine. But these are why it's called "traditional" martial art...it contains a set of (some would say treasured) traditions handed down over time. So...maybe this will help you understand what I mean, lumping things into "efficient" "inefficient" buckets is simply not a fair way to assess a TMA. A TMA should teach effective fighting, but they often contain more than just fighting techniques. IF you don't care about any of that stuff fine go take MMA and you'll get what you want if your instructor is any good. "The art failing the people taking it". How can the art fail anybody!!!! That's like saying drawing is "inefficient" because there are so many people who can't draw worth a damn (myself included). This talk of "inefficiency" and art is kind of silly, my friend. There are efficient TMA techniques, and they are trained efficiently in pressure tested environments. There are efficient TMA techniques that aren't utilized in competition but might be worth knowing anyway, especially if they improve flexibility or maintain strength when you don't have access to equipment. Efficient/not-efficient is not some universal standard, it sounds like just your personal experience (as you said above, right?). TCMA doesn't have a bad rep, unless you're talking about your own personal experiences again or opinions of people you know. MMA doesn't have a bad rep, unless you're talking about my personal experiences with Tapout-drenched MMA meatballs. "make it work" is subjective. The 1% who CAN "make it work" validate everything in the art. If 1 person in 1,000,000,000 in TCMA was an amazing martial artist, it would not say anything about the art. It would if anything tell you how difficult it was to perfect, but if that one champion could do it, another could, and another....that's the legacy of TMA, in a nutshell. "There can be only one". Now that is an extreme exaggeration...but I think it helps my point. If arts are judged on how well it develops the students, Hung Kuen has a good couple of centuries on MMA. MMA has been producing quality fighters for a couple decades, Hung Kuen has produced them for a couple hundred years. If MMA is still around by 2114, we can compare the two. By train terribly I just mean doing MMA in the fad fashion and going out into the world to illuminate the world about the flaws of TCMA, when you don't know what you're talking about. There are people doing TCMA for half their life who can pound into the next century. And sure, there are also lots of TCMA people who could not. And the average MMAer might be able to eat those people alive in a tussle. But I'll bet a lot couldn't. Sad as it is, we now live in the age of McMMA. But, these folks now share the same type of fantasy common in TCMA: Many believe after 1-2 years of training they are Anderson Silva, and they didn't need all that "TMA crap"...ironic! I think it's important to note that not everyone cares about gaining useful skills "quickly", some people prefer the slow burn because it encourages commitment and discipline. To each his own. You could argue that skills gained quickly can just as quickly be lost, especially with age, but some methods from antiquity like TCMA are for maintaining something as simple as quick reflexes and sinew strength, which is why I can post videos of 80 and 90 year olds performing Hung Kuen combat techniques, but can't find MMA folks at 80 and 90 sparring or competing.
This whole post is great, QFT, and it backs up every point I've made too. Again, you said 90% of TCMA schools are bad. I said 99% are bad! But I still say the 1% is worth it. So, can we agree TCMA trained as Master Xiangzhai speaks of, combined with a healthy dose of cross training to hone skills, is an important part of TCMA training? There's no need to get rid of anything. Just to do it right, or not at all.
Here is a great 2-part documentary on the history of southern Chinese boxing. Note the statistic mentioned in the first link..several dozen million people training ancient styles of Southern boxing even today in China. Even if we use my 1% rule (sorry I hate to be such a hard judge of TCMA), that means thousands these folks will take their Southern boxing skills to the level required for mere combat efficiency. In the old disciplines, fighting skills were the FIRST thing focused on, with the maintenance/conceptual elements later on, or taught in parallel. The concept of spending years just doing exercises to "prepare" for fighting goes against the history, because life back then was very short and there was no time for that sort of nonsense. You learned your basics fast for survival, and then maintained them with the disciplines. At some point as the survival needs lessened, the basics fell away and were replaced with talk and theorycrafting (which I will submit has been used to abuse every art ever conceived). As Icefield pointed out, the greatest Chinese masters saw these changes coming (mostly the focus on systems and methods and less on application) and lamented it, because that was "not the original essence of combat science". What a great quote. You can be my wingman any time, Iceman. (Cool Hung ga note: the illustrated figure at 4:13 in the first link is Lam Sai Wing, famous Hung ga grandmaster and military hand to hand instructor.) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf2YGc7C3CQ"]ã€New Frontier HQ】 Chinese Kungfu (07) Power of Southern Boxing Part One - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLHmWvpNnpM"]ã€New Frontier HQ】 Chinese Kungfu (08) Power of Southern Boxing Part Two - YouTube[/ame]
That is my Si Hings school in Perth Western Australia it is the Buck Sing branch of Choy Lay Fut, they have some fighters that train specifically for kickboxing Muay Thai tournaments etc, in a ring situation you cant really expect to see much of a difference between one style or another and they cant be expected to get into a ring and do that anyway with the gloves and different rules that are set out from one tournament to another. This guy here Marco Tentori is from the same school and does fairly well in the Kickboxing Muay Tai fights in Australia but his base style is Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut. https://www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=OaKXU9PPEMXC8geIrIHoBQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=marco+tentori
Well "19thLoHan" you claim you trained with Jason, have fought students of mine and are claiming you know information on me.. so WHO ARE YOU? 20 years people training with me have been winning in Sanshou, San Da, Muay THai, boxing, and MMA... sort of a "coincidence" don't you think ?? So please identify yourself
That's why I'm so disillusioned with the majority (let's say, 9 out of 10) CMA guys I've met/can potentially meet. Including schools, teachers, organizations, or just general groups of people. I remember years back, coming up the ranks in terms of skill and knowledge, having disagreements with various individuals, questioning certain dogmas and beliefs that seemed questionable/illogical, with people responding extremely negatively a large amount of the time. Maybe even a majority of the time. I'm just happy I got lucky enough to fall into a "good" CMA style to begin with (CLF) then fall into what I think is the best sub-system (Buk Sing). Obviously I like fighting, I've been doing Muay Thai and Kyokushin as well and I suppose how I fight is pretty much a hybrid of the three. But honestly, I learned the most about fighting through MT, because all I ever did was drill, hit things, and spar. Kyokushin, despite being tough as hell, has a lot of inefficient/ineffective training methods. So does Buk Sing, when interpreted and practiced for the sake of pure historical representation. These days if I want to test my skills I just do it in the MT ring, nobody cares what style or techniques I use, if they work people like it, if they don't I either improve or stop doing what's ineffective.
Funny, after a recent discussion on the Muay Thai forum I was just thinking how over time a lot of stuff has been made a foul in Muay Thai to preserve an idealised Muay Thai aesthetic.
