[Choi Kwang Do] Choi Kwang Do

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by LilBunnyRabbit, Jun 29, 2002.

  1. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    So how does 'anuro jirugi' differ from a boxers cross?

    You've mentioned people as having pre-conceived ideas of what a boxers cross entails, so what is so special about it.

    From an outsiders point of view, CKD has roots in TKD, which is known as being a great kicking style, but knows little about hand techniques. How certain are you that this scientific technique utilised in CKD isn't as common as sugar in every other MA kitchen?
     
  2. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    hmm inward punch?? hey i used to call that before knowing that it's cross :D
    damn, guys why u all blame to Koreans... live n let live :D
    PS: Does CKD uses realistic Weapons??

    -TkdWarrior-
     
  3. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Of course it is, or rather variations of it are. There are differences as there are between any technique in two styles. I'll show you them sometime. We call it inwards punch. Someone else might call it centreline punch. Someone else might call it the cross. Someone else might call it wind of the north star. Its just a useful, descriptive name.

    Realistic weapons? As in weapons that you'll be walking down the street with?

    There are stick and knife defense drills in the curriculum, but if you start training to use weapons there's a high chance you'll start carrying them, and that's a great way to get arrested.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2002
  4. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    LOL!

    Man you must have led a sheltered life. Here where I live almost EVERYONE carries weapons. The only difference is that some know how to use them.

    LOL!
     
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    A lot of people carry weapons here, but not the majority. There've been a fair number of arrests, and unsuprisingly neither the police nor the bouncers like it.
     
  6. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi Jimmy,

    I don't see the connection to be honest. I train, to a small degree, with weapons and I don't get any temptation to to carry an illegal weapon. However, I do carry items that could potentially be used as weapons should the need arise. I could quite legitimately use my umbrella, steering-wheel lock, pen, keys etc. as weapons of convenience, as long as I am not carrying them with that purpose in mind. I could also quite legitimately pick up a weapon of convenience. Or if I take a weapon from an attacker, I am better placed to use it to defend myself from his mates, as long as I have some appropriate weapons training.

    Even if not using a weapon yourself but when facing an attacker with one, some practice with that particular type of weapon will help - you'll have a better idea of the strengths and weaknesses of that weapon.

    But I do agree that purposefully carrying a weapon in the UK is a very foolish thing to do.

    Mike
     
  7. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor



    But also limiting the surface area to absorb the impact. Thus increasing the risk of breaking the bone on top.

    Just think back to your physics class. Or check out this link -

    http://www.s-cool.co.uk/topic_quick...=4&subject_id=16&ebt=316&ebn=&ebs=&ebl=&elc=4

    With blocking the way you describe, the surface area of the arm is smaller. If a force is applied over a smaller surface area you get a larger pressure on it. THIS increases the risk of breaking your arm.

    If the surface area is larger (Using the arm as we do in CKD, you can see it is) the force is spread out and the pressure is low. Thus, using basic physics we have shown you how the arm positioning in our blocks has been thought out and designed to REDUCE the risk of injury to the practitioner in comparison to other arts that use the "Blade" of the arm.

    Another reason why we go on about "Traditional Arts" being less beneficial for overall health, IF they are practiced in the manner that our Grandmaster was taught (By General Choi, i may add)

    So your telling me you want to add more power to your arm when you have weekend its ability to absorb the impact? Call me crazy if you want, but if i have reduced the ability of my arm to absorb pressure, there is no way i would want to put more power into that arm to meet that pressure?? Ok, you may not be injured now, your arm may be fine now, but when youve been training for 30-40 years at that intensity with the same techniques then tell me how beneficial your techniques have been for your body?
     
  8. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    hmm nice post amiller...watever u hav said about blocking is quite rite, for example u can look for dogbrother's clip of shin break in which person got contact at lower part of shin n got broken

    but when sayin that traditional art doens't go well with health then i think u r quite wrong...
    the name u took(Gen Choi) i can tell u that he lived well past his 80's why didn't he got any probs or injury related with any things wat u say in CKD??...my teacher is doing from last 20 yrs...his teachers is doing for about 35+ years...they still didn't hav probs... GM Rhee ka Hee was with Gen from his army days(my teacher was trained with him too) n he doesn't get any of those probs...
    wat motivated the idea of CKD was that Training of GM Choi(not Gen choi) it must hav be that he was over enthuasist n went beyond his body capabilites...only at that level u get hurt...
    even i m responsible for this...having faced those problems with my knuckle i can tell u how much is rite...but with rite practice it's minimised...when i started training 6.5 yrs back i just overdid it..n had probs with my knuckles but with rite training in TKD i hav lessened it's effect(just couple of yrs back i could punch with my rite hand, my MA started from Muai thai)
    just my thoughts...
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  9. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Two things:

    I don't like the way your trying to use the "rising block", banging force on force to stop a blow is usually a bad idea. But it can be done.

    Think about your logic though, and apply it to punches. Don't hit with the knuckles, it decreases surface area and could damage yourself. Instead hit with the palm. In part that is true, you don't hit skull with knuckles, but punching is done by eveyone (including CKD)

    Many of the old Okinawan karate masters have been asked about what makes good karate. They answer "Long life". With many practitioners continuing into their 80;s and even 90's it seems a little odd to say they have spent 70+ years damaging themselves.
     
  10. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    So can jumping out of a plane and landing safely, doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

    True, however with punching we are trying to cause damage to a target, besides which the human fist has two lovely large knuckles designed for hitting people. These are solid lumps of hard bone. The bones in your arm are more at risk, being essentially sticks or rods and thus standing more chance of micro-fractures or breakages than solid lumps.

    To put it another way, would you prefer to try and break someone's forewarm, or their knuckles?

    The forearm you can break with a good blow, knuckles you'll need a fairly good blow with a hammer or similar weapon.

    And yet I've met people training in various arts in their 20s to 30s who're complaining about arthritis, sore joints, weak knees, etc etc. Compare this to Choi where we've got students who used to have similar problems which they are rapidly recovering from.

    I won't deny that the old masters are absolutely exceptional, that would be pointless. If they've been doing it for 70+ years though then think about the number of people who haven't made it that far, due to whatever reasons, including health.
     
  11. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    <And yet I've met people training in various arts in their 20s to 30s who're complaining about arthritis, sore joints, weak knees, etc etc. >
    jimmy u r not understanding one thing... that is that with rite guidance this doesn't happen...i told most of my teachers is 35 + yrs old n they hav expereince for about 20+ yrs in TKD alone... but they don't hav problems.. it's not because one stops practice it's because of not intelligent practice...
    My Taiji teacher hav done iron palm iron shirt n iron broom legs but if u look his hands they don't hav calluses, they r soft, i m doing Iron Palm n Iron Shirt n i hav'n't developed any calluses...
    my Iron Palm techniques comes from Internal Arts, but i think Mr Andrew can tell u about Iron Palm practices or anyone else in this site...
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  12. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Same with this sort of block.

    They are bigger then the forearm bones :confused:

    And they are not designed for hitting people

    Both are bone, ones just bigger

    smaller bones break much easier.

    Why do you think the Dog brothers wear gloves but not forearm pads?


    So?

    I too have students who came in with these problems and have had a noticable increase since beginning training.

    Maybe some places just do things wrong.

    So they are just genetic mutations who are not injured in the same way as us. They are also sick and twisted individuals who find it amusing to teach others methods which cause injury while telling them that it will make them healthy and live longer.

    Perhaps some schools just do things wrong.
     
  13. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Gobsmacked! Your knuckles are not solid lumps of hard bone. They are...wait for it...JOINTS. They are not designed for hitting people, they are designed to articulate the fingers, nothing more, nothing less.

    The bones of the forearm (ulna, radius) are much closer to being 'solid lumps of hard bone'. They are...wait for it again....bones, not joints.

    But, hey, don't take my word for it. Look it up in any anatomy book.
    Have you ever seen a forearm being broken with a good blow? I haven't, but I've seen people cause irrevocable damage to their knuckles by striking things with them.

    Now I can break knuckles easily. It requires a little anatomical knowledge and a bit more common sense. Place one of the fingers in a lock - take the lock too far. It does not require a great deal of strength. The ulna or radius, however, would take quite a hefty blow.

    Andrew was quite right when he talked about hitting the head with a palm-heel rather than the knuckles. Its much safer. Try hitting a head without padding on your hands and you'll rapidly reach the same conclusion. The forearm, however, well I can whack this into any part of the human body without danger of any significant injury to myself. What's more, the technique can look remarkably similar to the rising block that people keep deriding.:eek:

    The old way of doing Karate was as much about longevity and good health as anything else. Sadly, this is not fully appreciated in many modern karate styles. But happily there are teachers, in every discipline, who are keen to protect the health and well-being of their students. It is foolish to tar all practitioners of any particular art with the same brush.

    Mike
     
  14. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Oh of course, blocks aren't meant to stop someone from hitting you, they're designed to hurt their arm. Should've remembered that.

    We don't train to hurt people with blocks, we train to not get hit by using blocks.

    No, they're smaller than the forearm bones. However they are also tougher.

    Actually they were originally designed for walking on. Knuckles are among the most effective weapons on the human body, make the best of what you've got.

    A small lump of stone is harder to break than a rob of stone, as with almost all materials, including bone.

    God alone knows, I can't think of a good reason.

    So that's our argument pretty much validated.

    If you can do something, and its not harmful to you, most people assume that its not harmful to anyone. Its only when the teacher is injured by it that they begin to wonder if that's why their students suffer. I don't doubt that there are schools that just do things wrong as well, muddying the issue.

    They are in essence lumps of bone, they are some of the best weapons on the human body.

    So by your argument we shouldn't punch with the knuckles at all?

    Hmm, different experiences I guess.

    Since we were referring to impacts I was ignoring the fact that they can be broken in a lock, same as any other joint. They are harder to break with an impact than the arm.

    I've thrown a few punches without padding, and strangely not reached the same conclusion. Yes it stings a little, but since it also stops them from attacking you its worth a little sting.

    When you throw an elbow into someone the impact is more spread out than when you're blocking, I also doubt that you throw an elbow using only one of the bones in alignment, as the traditional rising block generally requires.

    True, but unfortunately in many styles (not just karate) there are enough doing it badly that people are getting hurt.
     
  15. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    If you're talking about the movement known as 'rising block' in karate you should be aware that it has a multitude of practical uses, not only for 'blocking' attacks. For instance it can be used as a strike. Typically I would use it to strike the neck/jaw area. This is a devastating technique.

    But lets look at its function as a block. Do you remember what I said the other day "strike a hard target with a soft weapon and a soft target with a hard weapon". Now if the attack is a round punch to my head I might well block it by striking to the inner aspect of the elbow area with my forearm (my ulna to be specific - that's the forearm bone on the same side as the little finger). Hence I'm striking the soft tissue of their arm with a hard bone. This can be extremely painful for the puncher and makes it more difficult to deliver another blow with the same arm.

    If, however, the attack was a downward blow to the head with a hard weapon, I would use 'rising block' differently. This would look more like the 'traditional' way of using the block. However I do not block with the ulna alone. The first point of contact is actually the back of the arm, using the ulna and the radius bones but with the padding of the outer forearm muscles between the bones and the incoming weapon. This is not a force against force block however, rather the block glances against the incoming weapon. Immediately on impact the forearm rolls so that it is only the ulna in contact with the weapon. To work best this should be accompanied by a sideways shift of the body to avoid the strike. The roll of the forearm enables the weapon to be relatively easily pushed aside. When viewed by the 'uninitiated' this can appear to be a simple smashing of ulnas together, but it is not, it just happens a bit quick to really see properly what is happening. In fact, it can go further than that. Having made contact with the incoming weapon and slowed it down to some degree its possible to carry on with the same rolling motion of the forearm and grab the weapon. Again, to the uninitiated this can look like you're just reaching out and grabbing the incoming weapon but it is much more subtle and effective than attempting to do this.

    Do all karate practitioners do it this way? Probably not. But I know many do, I first learnt to do it in about 1977 so I'm sure its fairly common knowledge in karate circles.

    This rolling of the forearm is found in many karate movements and has a number of uses.

    RE: KNUCKLES

    In what way are they tougher? Can you cite your medical source for this information?

    No they were not designed for walking on. They are designed for enabling controlled movement of the fingers.

    It may be that once upon a time our ancestors used them to occasionally support their weight, in the same way that some apes do today. But even in modern apes this use is secondary to the primary purpose of articulating the fingers. This can be easily seen by comparison with quadripeds. They bear weight on their front legs with the part of their anatomy that corresponds to the medial (not the lateral) parts of our hands, ie. the palm-heels, inner aspects of the knuckles or the fingers - depending on which quadriped your looking at. I can't think of a single quadriped, off the top of my head, that walks on what we would regard as the lateral aspect of the knuckles.

    But that's enough zoology and paleontology. Suffice to say that what may have partially true for our ancestors several million years ago is not true for modern humans.

    How easy it is to break an object depends in part on its shape. Obviously, for a relatively inelastic material, the longer and thinner it is the easier it is to cause major fracture, as long as you hit it in the middle, perpendicular to its long axis. You're argument might have some validity if indeed the knuckles were actually 'robs of bone'.

    No, they are in essence joints. Joints are composed of a number of tissues including, but not limited, to: bone, cartilage, ligament, tendon, lubricating fluid. I can recommend a number of good anatomy texts that you might find informative.

    No, I did not say that. 2+2<>5 no matter how much you would like it to.

    We should certainly exercise caution when striking with our bodies though. With any weapon on the human body, there are targets that it is appropriate for and targets which it is not. I like my knuckles, I avoid striking powerfully to bony projections or solid plates of bone with them.

    I said: "Have you ever seen a forearm being broken with a good blow? I haven't, but I've seen people cause irrevocable damage to their knuckles by striking things with them."

    To which you replied: "Hmm, different experiences I guess." So are you saying you have seen a forearm broken with a good blow?

    By the way, I'm not saying that that's not possible. Of course it is. But its much easier to damage a knuckle, most easily with a lock, but I've also seen it happen with strikes. I've never seen a broken ulna, radius or humerus in training (although of course it can happen).

    Then you have been relatively lucky. I think there was another thread recently in which someone mentioned why gloves were introduced into boxing. It was not to protect the person on the receiving end of the punch, but primarily to protect the hand of the puncher. But presumably the experiences of generations of boxers are irrelevant?

    When striking with the elbow you are still striking mainly with the ulna (depending on the orientation of your hand) but yes the impact is more spread out by the presence of the soft tissue around the proximal end of the ulna. Actually when I do an elbow I may choose to strike with various parts of the ulna depending on the target. Against a relatively soft target the mid-part of the ulna can act as a 'blade' to dig into the soft tissue or even to apply pressure to the edge of a bone - the mastoid process or occipital ridge (base of the skull) for example. Against the flat side of the skull I would prefer to use the more proximal end of the ulna (close to the elbow joint). Against the ribs I might quite like to dig the point of the elbow in. There is no one 'best' answer, merely options.

    This much I agree with. But if you do make sweeping assumptions about how other people do things you will inevitably miss many excellent opportunities to learn and improve your own skills. I prefer a pragmatic approach to a dogmatic one.
     
  16. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Okay, with regards to the knuckles and forearms.

    Take a marble, try to break it. Take a dice, try the same thing. Take any lump of a material and try to crush it (since in an impact crushing is the important thing). Now take a longer, if thicker, rod of the same material and deal the same amount of force to it. The rod will suffer more damage than the lump did, because of its structure.

    So do we, I agree with you here. However the point still stands that for striking many targets your knuckles are your best weapons.

    I've visited almost every martial art school in my area (I don't visit ones that don't offer trial lessons) and spent several months training at most of them. From this I have concluded two possibilites: 1. A large number of traditional martial arts are taught badly or 2. I'm in a bad area for any martial art other than Choi.
     
  17. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I believe I already mentioned that the shape of the object makes a difference, as does the point at which the impact occurs. But your argument is fundamentally flawed in more than way. The knuckle is not a lump of bone. It is a joint. Ignoring this fact does not make it any less true. Now when you form your hand into a fist you move the fingers out of the way exposing the distal heads of the metacarpal bones (the long bones you can feel on the back of your hand). Of course, the knuckles being joints there are other more delicate tissues between the skin and the bone, ie. tendon and cartilage. But lets ignore those for a moment. So you're essentially striking with the end of the metacarpal bone. The metacarpals are rod-like in shape with a bulbous head at each end. Mmm, sounds a bit like the ulna and radius, ie. the bones of the forearm, to me! Now going back to those soft tissues. Every time you strike with the knuckles you're driving the cartilage and ligament into the target. I'm not saying this is necessarily dangerous, but you need to choose the target with care, otherwise you may damage them. You might also miss and connect with the fingers instead, damaging them. You might also get the alignment slightly wrong and risk spraining the wrist. None of these problems present themselves when striking with the forearm. Of course it too, just like punching, has its strengths and weaknesses.

    No the point does not stand. You are stating an opinion that you have not backed up at all with facts, despite me asking you to do so. I have stated a number of facts that can be verified by consulting any decent anatomical text. The reader can draw their own conclusions.

    A reasonable knowledge of anatomy can identify many potential weapons, and targets appropriate to those weapons, on the human body. The knuckles are certainly an important one, but there are plenty of others.

    I see you chose to snip out most of my post, conveniently ignoring the points raised.

    But as for your last point, I note that you say that you don't visit schools that don't offer trial lessons. So if the school doesn't offer you some free lessons you don't go. Just maybe, I mean just maybe, there might be some schools out there that aren't interested in recruiting as many students as possible, that don't offer free lessons or a free uniform and kamikaze headband when you join, that may even be non-profit organisations and only teach small numbers of students. And just maybe some of these same schools might have a lot of valuable stuff to teach you, if you were actually willing to learn.
     
  18. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Maybe there are, but I'm not going to pay for a full years training when they won't even let me watch a class. If they don't want you to watch, there's something they don't want seen until its too late for you to refuse to pay.

    I apologise, I was wrong and because I'm stubborn tried to defend an indefensible position. So does this mean that we can agree that the knuckles are an important weapon, and punches should be taught?

    I didn't think it was necessary to comment or argue with things I have no argument about.

    We strike with both bones in alignment, spreading impact and minimising damage. I'm suprised that you'd throw an elbow using only one bone, unless I've misunderstood what you're saying.
     
  19. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I wouldn't pay a year's tuition fees up front even if I had seen what they had to offer. Do people really ask that, that you pay a year's tuition, or even just their annual membership fee, up front? Sheesh, no wonder I don't make any money out of teaching. I'm going about it all wrong.

    Well said. It takes courage to admit that. You have my respect.

    Absolutely, I think punches are very important. I also use a number of weapons that are not favoured in most modern karate (and other arts I suspect).

    Just as an aside though, I will say that I have chosen not to teach punches to complete beginners. I introduce them after several months training. My rationale is as follows.

    Initially I try to teach a small self-defence syllabus. So I have no eye on long-term goals, just what people can make work in the very short-term. I find punches, however, to take a considerable degree of practice to get right, to get to the point where you can damage your assailant without damaging yourself in the process. This has to do with correct wrist alignment, fist formation, target selection and distancing. So rather than worry about any of these I just get complete beginners to use a palm-heel instead. I find it much more forgiving on the user. After the student passes their first grade then they can begin to give some attention to long-term skills. I appreciate this isn't the only way to go about teaching, but it appeals to me.

    I'm not sure whether there is some misunderstanding there. Let's look at it in more detail. Firstly, I presume we're talking about an elbow strike where you're striking forwards (or round, however you view it) or up, rather than when you're striking down or backwards (eg. elbowing someone stood behind you). OK, so checking the bones at the elbow out you can feel 3 bony points:
    1. The tip of the elbow: this is the ulnar olecranon, the end of the ulna bone (the bone on the outer (little finger) edge of the forearm).
    2. The bony point on the outside of the elbow: this is the lateral condyle of the humerus, ie. it is part of the upper arm bone.
    3. The bony point on the inside of the elbow: the medial condyle of the humerus. Again, part of the upper arm bone.

    You can see some good diagrams of these bones at:

    http://www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Topics/Bones/Humerus/humerus.html

    I think everyone would agree that you don't want to strike with medial condyle of the humerus. You'd need to strike at quite a funny angle and you'd risk banging your 'funny bone' - actually the ulnar nerve which passes close to the surface between the ulnar olecranon and the medial condyle of the humerus.

    So right at the elbow you can only realistically strike with the ulna or the lateral condyle of the humerus, or both. Personally I don't like to impact specifically with the lateral condyle of the humerus (I wish that was easier to type:( ). It feels more fragile than the ulnar olecranon to me.

    Or we could be talking about a bit further along the forearm than the tip of the elbow itself. This gives rise to the debate about whether you should have your palm facing down or towards yourself at the moment of impact. Either way, I don't really see how you can impact directly with 2 bones.

    When the palm faces back towards yourself the area of impact is on the superior surface of the ulna and the muscle over the radius (the forearm bone on the thumb side). I can't personally use the radius in this strike. I have too much muscle in the way, although I'm not really that well built. Also the radius angles back out of the way, the closer it gets to the elbow. So you're impacting largely with muscle tissue. However, the radius is providing support to much of this muscle tissue. So perhaps that's what you mean by striking with 2 bones?

    When the palm faces down the radius is rolled completely out of the way so that you're striking with the ulna only. This I think is my preferred way although I suppose it could be argued that the other way is preferrable for certain targets.

    Does this all make sense? Are you striking in one of these ways or is it something wholly different?

    Mike
     
  20. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Actually only two asked me to give them a full years tuition before they'd let me train, the others asked me to pay a months tuition before they'd let me watch a class.

    Fair enough, I can see why. Way that we teach is a six-class method for new students, first class spent learning the stances, ettiquette, and right front inwards punch, right front leg front kick and outwards block. Second class is a review of that, and the same off the left side. Third class introduces right rear inwards punch on the right, rear leg front kick (off the right stance, so kicking with the left leg) and inwards block. Fourth reverses the sides again. Fifth class we teach low block, and the combination, and sixth we teach low block on the left, and the pattern.

    Main advantage is that, since we've got several assistant instructors and various schools, it means that everyone knows what a new student has and has not been taught.

    Yep, we teach it with the back of the fist facing outwards, so effectively palm facing towards you, and to perform the strike horizontally from shoulder height.
     

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