[Choi Kwang Do] Choi Kwang Do

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by LilBunnyRabbit, Jun 29, 2002.

  1. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Since you seem to have a fairly negative opinion of it purely from publicity materials and with no or very little experience then yes, I doubt it is for you. Just because you wouldn't like it though doesn't make it inneffective.

    How about if they've been proven time and again to work on the street?

    Not quite, some of the principles are similar since boxing punches have good mechanics, but we teach a variety, not merely the ones used in boxing, and we also include a variety of strikes, both hands, elbows and knees.

    No and no, and to be honest I don't really think it affects me. We punch the way we do because its a way to generate as much power as possible from the techniques. How do you punch?

    Yep, one's soft and bouncy, the other usually involves someone stepping out of the dark and swinging a punch at you, grapping you by the shoulder and trying to hit you, two guys trying to take your wallet off you, someone coming at you with a baseball bat with no particular warning, someone jumping you from behind to try and rip your backpack away, a drunkard simply swinging a kick at you for no real reason, a guy on drugs convinced that you've got some, and determined to get them off you no matter what, someone trying to steal your car in a dark carpark at night. Shall I go on?

    Fine, you end it like that. Personally I'd like to hit them as hard as I can, put them down or at least cause them enough pain that they're not gonna be chasing after me as I sprint off into the distance. The same goes for their two mates hiding round the corner.

    Really? How so? We're missing out on fighting against opponents trained and skilled in the same martial art? Missing out on being needlessly hurt? We learn to block and attack in defense drills, why bother introducing pain to it, except from some macho 'I can take more than you can' urge?

    Fine, now if I criticise your art (doesn't matter what it is, if I wanted to I could find a way) and attack it without ever having seen it, how would you persuade me to believe that its a good art when I simply deny any statement that you make and refuse to try it for myself?

    We don't play the game? Right, then why does it work on the street? We leave nothing out because it might cause injury, we simply practise in a safe way. And where did the whole figure skating and baseball thing come in?

    Yes, more than once or twice, as have other people I know ranging from white belts up to third dan black belt. They vast majority have managed it, in fact as far as I'm aware the only one who ever actually got hurt in an encounter was me, mainly because I was overconfident and turned to walk away a little too early.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2002
  2. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    There are a number of issues here, all of which are worth discussion.

    Is sparring necessay?
    Is groundwork?
    Is hitting and running the best strategy?

    all of which I'd be more then willing to discuss, but this thread is getting rather dull. You've made your claims, you believe them, have fun with it. I disagree with your methods, your theories and your style as a whole. Unless something new can be brought forth I see no reason to continue.

    Freeform: Not really, Any training is better then none. Buying a big and hitting it for 30 mins a day will make you a better fighter and increase your odds on the street. So why don't we just shut down all the schools and buy bags?

    Tae Bo is better then nothing and can be used for defence. Is Tae Bo an effective martial art?

    There are some people that can defend themselves without any formal training, does that mean we shouldn't train?

    All arts CAN work, I won't try to argue that. But some work better then others.

    Get a group of figure skaters, and another group that has never played hockey, or even skated. The two groups are about equal in every other sense, but one has trained in figure skating. Have them play hockey, the figure skaters will win. So I conclude that figure skating is an effective method of playing hockey.

    Better then nothing yes, but good no.

    reread the post.
     
  3. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Andrew, I think you kind of missed my point, I meant that if your advertising the style as 'streetfighting' the only 'real' proof that it works is by winning a street fight, of wich there are several types (muggings, multiples, match fights etc).

    My other point is that you can't ignore grappling, sometimes you don't get the chance to choose, such as with multiples or if someone just gets the drop on you and grabs you. Its very easy to happen, you can't be 100% vigilant 100% of the time

    Just my 2 cents, please don't hurt me anyone :)

    Thanx
     
  4. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    'Au Contraire' Monsieur Green,

    It's just starting to get interesting :D
     
  5. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    CKD doesn't ignore Grappling, we try to cover all ranges.

    Grappling starts in stand up position(getting in close and grabbing)we train quite extensively in this.
    It then moves to the ground with a take down of sorts, again we teach the simplest/most practical for us, once on the ground the most practical thing to do is simply get up(if you don't get up you do run the risk of being attacked by other parties) so we teach simple, effective escape techniques, once we're free from a hold we get up(we don't try to fight on the ground for reasons said earlier).
    In CKD we first and foremost teach avoid a confrontation.
    If it has to be......., we teach don't be on the ground for we don't know what 'll happen once we're there(we will have no control and no easy escape on the ground, where as if we're on our feet and the odds turn against us we can always do a runner -"subject to terms and conditions"):D

    If anyone disagrees with this lets discuss it.
    The only problem is, with sinarios the answer tends to be different for each one, so try to steer clear of them.
     
  6. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I agree with Freeform, groundifighting can't be ignored completely. A good percentage of street fights end up with at least one person on their back.

    Rob
     
  7. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    What exactly are we calling ground fighting?

    Do we have one definition or are there a few or even many?

    I'd like a few people to give there input on that question to see if we are all of the mind!

    Opinions please?
     
  8. waya

    waya Valued Member

    To me, anything from the ground up. If I'm not on my feet I consider it groundfighting.

    Rob
     
  9. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    If you're taken to the floor do you stay there indefinately and try to win there or do you wait for - hopefuly - an opportunity to get up and then run or kick the sh*te out of them or does it depend on the situation in which case we can't really debate it anyway.

    If we're are faced with mugger or rapist or even multiple attackers for instance is it better to stay on the ground and try and win from there(mistakes are made thats how fights are won and lost) or provide a escape for ourselves and get up and run like hell?

    We've got to look at the worst possible senario...no?
    Any thoughts on that?
     
  10. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    grappling: very important, hitting someone isn't always the best alternative for real situations. I'd prefer to end it with a lock/restraint/choke if possible.


    I agree, that hitting someone isnt always the best for every situation. the best alternative is to try to avoid any confrontation if possible. While i do believe that there are occasions when you may need to restrain someone i dont think its wise to lock someones limbs. By doing that you are tying yourself up unessacarily and leaving yourself open for a friend or another person to come in to attack you. As for chocking, like locking, im not happy to try to choke someone. I actually was experimenting with choke's in class and i managed to knock a student out with one. It's too risky to practice on people as far as im concerned. And if you dont practice a technique with an element of realism you just get a negative transfer from doing it. After all, if all you practice is to lightly lock you arms around someones throat then you will end up doing that on the street and get nowhere.

    Im not trying to convert you to CKD Andrew. As far as im concerned, i couldnt care what you really think of the art as your not someone i know well enough to worry about their thoughts and beliefs. I mearly illistrated SOME of our training methods to let you see how we train for Self Defence. You may not feel those methods are for you and i respect your right to feel that way. I just felt like you didnt seem to understand how James was explaining our methods and i also felt that you were being very negative and aggressive unnecasarily. I have made my points and that is where i will leave it with you.

    BTW, i feel that Choi Kwang-Do is the best art for me. I have gained so many benefits form it and i know that i can use it to defend myself succesfully, without causing unnecassery stress to my body. I also acknowledge that although it is an excellent art, there are things to be learnt from other arts that could benefit a CKD students overall self defence abilities. But what art is 100% perfect??? There is a flaw in every one. CKD has enabled me and my students to punch, kick and strike with an amazing amount of power. I know this as i have trained at other martial art classes and felt a difference in power with comparable sized students. There are training drills to cover a wide range of defence scenarios that are practical, easy to learn and apply with the minimum amount of lessons to be able to use them effectivly. I know this because i have used them and so have my students and the results have spoken for themselves. However, if i was to ever come accross a martial art that could teach me to punch, kick, strike harder and make my defence skills a magnitude better then i would go study that. I cant see that ever happening though. I have found what i want, but i still feel that there are other things to gain form studying other arts, you just have to filter it and apply what you can use to your training.

    Pil Sung

    Dale
     
  11. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Response in Groundfighting thread...
     
  12. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    Choi Kwang-Do as opposed to Traditional Arts

    Its not just the lock out movements of Traditional Martial Arts that is different to CKD. Another difference in CKD and TKD is the way we block. TKD blocks (From what i have seen) work by first crossing the arms and then bringing the arm up to intercept the attackers limb (For a high block). In CKD we shift our body weight out of range and at the same time lift our arm to intercept the attack in one fluid motion.

    TKD students that engage in competitions tend to know that their traditional way of blocking doesnt work and so do not cross their arms, but block straight away. So TKD teaches the student one traditional way to block that is impractical for realistic defence and they then block differently when in fights. What is the point of teaching something one way and then have to change it to make it work in a fight situation.

    Another thing that we do differently is that we do not use the "blade" of the arm to block. In traditional blocks, only one of the two bones are used to intercept and block an attack. In CKD we use both the Radius and Ulna and effectivly spread the load of the deflection onto the two bones, instead of the one, effectivly allowing us to absorb more power safely. Also by using the one bone to block, as TKD Traditional Blocks are taught, the marital artist has to twist the Radius and the Ulna so that they are not parallel and effectivly cross. this leaves the arm sucseptible to breaking when used to defend heavt blows.

    So in escence, when we Choi Kwang-Do instructors keep harping about how different our art is over traditional arts and how much more safer and practical it is, we do not just use the lock out techniques as an example. There are so many differences in the Bio Mechanics and principles of our art that differentiate us from the "Traditional" arts. Maybe some of the people who teach these arts have changed their teaching methods over the years, but the majority havent. So when we say training in CKD is healthier and more beneficial than tarining in some traditional arts we have more than one difference to show. Maybe over time, i and other CKD instructors will discuss more here, but im going to just leave it at that for now

    Pil Sung

    Dale Miller
     
  13. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Re: Choi Kwang-Do as opposed to Traditional Arts

    This is exactly the sort of nonsense that caused all this. You make a huge generalization about how traditional arts do things with little or no exposure to the vast majority of traditional arts.

    Here let me try this,

    I've seen some "Korean" stylist lock their punches/kicks. I've seen Korean stylist that did not understand the motions in their forms, for example they tried to apply a motion as a block which clearly was not useable in the manner they attempted, I've seen Korean stylists that sparred in a poor manner if the goal is self-defence. I've seen Korean stylists that know very little about infighting. Want more?

    Anyway I can fairly clearly show that Korean styles are inferior and damaging to the practitioner physically. They are ineffiecient for self-defence purposes and practice many non-practical skills.

    So you should not study a Korean art, instead a Okinawan or Chinese or Philipino or...

    Choi Kwang Do is a Korean art, as such it is inferior and self-damaging. They lock their joint, use non-useable blocks and don't train in a practical way.

    Now can you spot the fallacy?

    This is exactly what your propaganda does.

    Actually mine covers more, a higher percentage of Korean arts do these then "traditional" arts as you only use TKD as your source for what traditional arts do. Their are a lot more traditional arts then their are Korean arts.

    You cannot make claims like this based on one or two groups doing thigs WRONG.

    Oh, and CKD IS A TRADITIONAL ART from everything I've seen and heard from you guys...
     
  14. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Then you haven't been listening.

    As for the propoganda, I have yet to see a traditional form of karate, TKD, or even a form of American kickboxing that does not lock out on techniques or at the least halt the techniques by brute force just before a lockout. I'm sure they're out there, but I've not seen any of them. I've also yet to see a traditional form that does not block with a single bone in the arm, trying to cause damage with the blocks.

    Now, given that I actually travel around to visit other schools whenever possible I think we can safely say that the claim can be backed up, not necessarily in all cases but the exceptions are the minority. Happy now?
     
  15. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter


    Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy... you should know better than to ask that here.

    Okay, as to people not understanding things let me dissect something for you. We'll use the (excuss me Andrew) "Traditional Karate upward block".

    Firstly, the bone thing in a nice simplistic answer. What bears a stronger load point load, two beams side by side, or one beam on top of the other? Your increasing the amount of material to resist damage.

    Next point. Hold a dumbell over your head. Try it with the outer forearm facing the ceiling, now try it with unla facing the ceiling, notice a difference? Yes, the second way is easier because now the muscles are aligned in a stronger position.

    Rotation. When performed correctly the "Traditional blocks" include a 'snap' rotation of the forearm before contact, this adds extra power and the deflection used in (and I use the term loosely) Karate 'blocking'.

    And this locking out of techniques is begining to sound old and tired. It has already been explained that these are incorrectly performed movements taught by inept teachers. CKD is relatively new compared to "traditional" arts, give it 10-15 yrs and your style will have the same problem that all the others have, cranks claiming to teach it (and doing it wrong) and idiots that have sneaked through the gradings that actually ar certified to teach (and are doing it wrong).

    Regards

    Colin
     
  16. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    I am a student/instructor of CKD and i don't think we should have to justify the way we teach or justify the techniques and we shouldn't have to appologize for the way we advertise, if someone doesn't like it then they could learn/teach something else.

    We don't have all the answers, it just suits the practitioners personally and individually.

    CKD promotes - personal gain - health and flexability - self defence - self confidence etc.
    Its safe and easy to learn, and non-competitive.

    Whats to argue with, we haven't said anything that isn't true.

    We could argue allday about any subject to do with CKD, the fact is people like it!
     
  17. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Ahem...very well put morphus :)

    Maybe its time we agreed to disagree?

    Given the chance...we could all have a go at everybodys interpretation of MA. :D

    hi, ho, hum...
     
  18. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I agree wholeheartedly that one shouldn't lock out the limbs when striking. This was a feature commonly found in Karate/TKD etc. in the 1970's and even 80's, in the UK. I would hope that less people do it nowadays. The style of Okinawan Karate I now study certainly does not encourage this practice. I don't know if you took part in Chris Barron's session on Okinawan Karate on Saturday but I don't believe that his style 'locks out'. And certainly I don't do that, but I wasn't teaching any Karate that day so you wouldn't have noticed that. However, if you trained with any of my students you shouldn't have seen them locking their limbs out straight.

    Your system appears to disapprove of arresting a blow a little before 'lock out', by tensing the musculature around the joint? I personally believe that it is fine to do this, as long as your muscles have sufficient power and control to appropriately cushion the joint during this movement. I'd be interested to hear the rationale as to why CKD disapproves of this.

    Actually I use both ways, depending on the circumstances. But anyway, I think that blocking methods in Karate and its derivative arts (eg. TKD) are extremely poorly understand by most practitioners. Which is why they block one way in basics and another way in sparring.

    Mike
     
  19. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    No lockout

    Ok Mike i'll try to explain how its done in CKD.

    Stance is important feet comfortable pace forward turn feet approx' 45degrees inwards, rear hand just level with chin elbow relaxed to body; leading hand shoulder height elbow relaxed to body(arm making a 'v' shape)! I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS STANCE TO PERFORM CKD TECHNIQUES.

    If we take a rear punch(leading right leg-left hand punch)
    it starts with a push off the rear leg, pushing the hips square to the target(plantar flex) and opening out the chest as you have not yet moved the stiking arm, this causes a stretch in the chest/shoulder(plymetric stretch);then perform a shoulder flip motion rolling the arm towards the target, (target is close in front of your face)at the striking point with the arm bent the shoulder/elbow/rist/fist should be aligned for a split second (when speeded up). The weapon is the first 2 knuckles. Drive through the target and follow through with the palm of punching hand facing the ground.
    It is at the moment just before the arm locks out that we relax the elbow joint(causing a flowing motion) before bringing the hand and body back to the original starting point ready for the next technique!
    There is no lock out, no sudden jolt to muscles/joints, no pull back.
    The essence of CKD is flowing, foward(backward if we're forced)motion.
    The same machanics are used for each and every punch/strike/kick/elbow/knee even head butt.

    I hope that gives you a good idea of a CKD technique, as its written - stand up and try it, see what you make of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2002
  20. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Morphus,

    If that was all that was said, then none of this would be here. It is the shots against "traditional arts" and misinformation avout them that I object too.

    I really don't care what you guys do, I've looked into it enough to say there is nothing for me in it. But if it makes inaccurate claims against what I do, saying it is harmfull and less effective based solely on strawmen arguments I will step up and show this.

    Jimmy,

    Please explain to me how CKD is not a traditional art. You follow a "traditional" rank structure, have a defined syllabus, rituals associated with your art, etc.

    Its just not old, but the tradtitional aspects are still there.

    What makes it different from a traditional art?
     

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