Discussion in 'Injuries and Prevention' started by Van Zandt, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Chiropractic used to be either illegal or ignored in much of europe. When licensing came in for osteopaths and chiropractors some decided they could not live with the new regulations and decided not to be licensed . The people who weren't licensed could not be stopped from working (under British law) but they could no longer call themselves osteopaths or chiropractors. They chose the name Osteomyologist as an alternative that could be used by anyone who wanted to band together as a manipulaitve practitioner but not be restricted by the law.

    British law is unique in that a new legislation can not stop people who have been working from continuing.. the title is proteced but not the practice that was being '' listed''.

    There are lots of opinions on whether these people are good or bad. Oddly there is a branch of chiropractic here called McTimmoney chiropractic that is considered almost heretical by USA chiriopractors but they make up a huge number of practitioners.

    When I moved to the UK there were schools for both osteopaths and chiropractors that were part time (one weekend a month ) for 3-4 years. Legislation required a standard training program... some think that this has medicalised the alternative professions too much and thus the osteomyologists etc formed...

  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Good point. I forgot that some chiropractors claim to treat things totally unrelated to spinal type issues.

    I do agree that that is bogus.

    My chiropractor doesn't make such claims, so I forgot that is part of the wider chiropractic community.
  3. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member


    Although I am sure this is not unique to chiropractic it does tend to happen to their patients the most. There was a study done a few years ago that said the thing that was most consistent in patients who had a stroke under 40 was that they had seen a chiropracotr within a few weeks of the stroke. Neck vessels develop a tear over a period of time and the injury might not have an effect fot a long time. trauma to these vessels might have been something like putting your head back too far in a sink or other things but none are quite as forceful as a manipulation. There was a lawsuit in Canada to try and sue the profession over these injuries but the courts said you could not sue a profession and that there would have to be lawsuits on a case by case basis.

  4. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    what can go wrong? a hell of a lot of things. go look up where the vertebral artery passes though before entering the skull and contributing to irrigation of the brain and associated structures. that can give you a pretty good idea of something that can go wrong (see above the thing about strokes, a stroke's proper name being cerebrovascular accident, ie a failure in irrigation of the brain and associated structures). there's also the brachial plexus, provider of all nerve supply to the upper limbs, which is formed directly by spinal nerves, which come from the spinal cord and leave it through the spaces between vertebrae. a spinal cord that is WITHIN the vertebrae, passing through the vertebral canals. pinch or damage cervical spinal nerves and you compromise part or all of the function of the shoulder and arm. break a part of the cord itself, and nothing from that part and downwards works. hello paraplegic or quadriplegic patient, or a dead patient if you break high enough (since you can shut off the lungs, for example). and this is all just based on normal anatomy, so imagine what sort of disaster a bad manipulation can cause if there's some sort of preexisting abnormality (such as one which may drive people to say "i've got to get this checked out", only for them to go to a quack who will bloody play with their neck because they can't tell the difference and people give them equal credibility).

    you don't joke with this sort of thing, and you don't do quack treatments, for good reason. hell, here in argentina, no license = jail time, if you're reported and caught (it's literally called "illegal exercise of medicine"). what alternative treatments ARE sanctioned (such as accupuncture) are also highly regulated and are considered specializations for existing health professionals such as our analogues of physios and medical doctors/general practitioners (but we're dumb so we call them kinesiologists and clinical medics), although we get a lot of people practicing independently because no one knows and/or minds (until there's an accident, by which time it's too late for whoever suffered damage, injury or worse)
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That gave no meaningful information. Look at the chiropractic research page, it's pathetic.

    Here's some more debunking (which includes explanations behind some of the studies quoted on the ACA site):
  6. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    You posted a link from a chiropractic organisation to support your argument.


    Next you'll be posting links from the Church of Scientology website to support your argument that Dianetics is a valid form of psychiatric treatment.
  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    No. I hear of people being put in jail for pretending to be MD's. That doesn't reflect on MD's.

    There are frauds in most fields. Medical and other professions.
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Just stating the requirements from the official website. Not like I was posting their studies to support the validity of their claims. No, not the same thing.

    You think they are making up the requirements?
  9. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    The requirements don't legitimise the efficacy of their treatments.
  10. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Sigh- that wasn't the intent.

    It was about people talking about qualifications.
  11. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    As I mentioned in the beginning 2 medial Dr's said I need back surgery. After several chiropractic visits one of the 2 retracted the need for surgery. The other was not sure. I run lift kick with no problems and no surgery. This is all the proof I need. That being said.I don't believe they can cure cancer prevent the flu etc . I have no doubt that in a few decades chiropractic will be accepted as viable medical practice that it is

    I have 2 friends I train with 1 physical therapist the other a chiropractor they go.back and forth on this subject all the time. They often referr patients to each other.

    Modern medicine is full of disused formerly thought to be safe practices that were later proven to be harmful.

    My primary Dr recommends chiropractic care. Yes an MD!
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Lots of people needlessly get referred for spinal surgery when physical therapy would work better.

    Here's a snippet from an article by a chiropractor:

    "Chiropractic and Physical Therapy Are Not the Same

    The only thing unique about chiropractic is its basic definition as a method of adjusting vertebral subluxations to restore and maintain health. Any other physical treatment method, including generic spinal manipulation, is physical medicine. The subluxation theory has been the chiropractic profession’s only reason for existence since its inception in 1895. Failure of the profession to establish itself as a legitimate physical-treatment specialty with an armamentarium that includes use of generic spinal manipulation continues to leave the profession dependent upon the basic tenets of chiropractic. Many chiropractors feel that if the chiropractic profession discards the subluxation theory and specializes in the care of back pain and related musculoskeletal problems, it will not be able to compete with physical therapists and other musculoskeletal practitioners who use manual therapy.

    With a foundation based on an implausible theory that nurtures a hodgepodge of dubious chiropractic techniques, the chiropractic profession is splintered by philosophies that go in many different directions. The approach of chiropractic colleges may range from “straight chiropractic,” which proposes that most ailments can be treated by adjusting vertebral subluxations, to “alternative medicine,” which permits use of unproven treatment methods to treat a broad scope of ailments without resorting to subluxation theory.

    It’s important to understand that manipulation used in the context of chiropractic subluxation theory is not done for the same reasons guiding the use of manipulation by physical therapists. With the exception of a few science-based chiropractors who use manipulation appropriately, it appears that most chiropractors manipulate or adjust putative vertebral subluxations in a misguided effort to restore and maintain health. Physical therapists use manipulation-mobilization primarily to restore mobility in the spine. When chiropractors accuse physical therapists of stealing their treatment method, nothing could be further from the truth. Generic spinal manipulation has long been a part of physical medicine and is unrelated to subluxation-based chiropractic. Chiropractors often say that the difference between physical therapists and chiropractors is that chiropractors adjust vertebrae while physical therapists manipulate the spine."


    If you have a physical therapist in your area who will administer spinal manipulations, there is absolutley no reason to put your health in the hands of a chiropractor, and every reason not to.
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Have you looked at any of the research?
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But the more flakey and vague a profession, the easier it is to pretend to do it.

    If bodyshot had said he'd pretended to be an MD, no-one would have believed him.
  15. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Chiropractic is not as vague as you think. Many Pro athletes swear by chiropractic.

    Not all MD'S are reputable or even worthy of their license. The same is true in the chiropractic world.

    I seriously doubt anyone.truely believed body shots claim.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Judging by the replies, I'd say he got away with it.

    A dodgy doctor is not the same as a chiropractor, because the basis of their profession is science, not pixie dust.

    Honestly, it's like talking to religious fundamentalists. Have you read any of the links provided?

    I don't know how else to say it, so I'll just quote my first post again:

    EDIT: And professional athletes are no proof of efficacy:

    "Well known sports personalities are among the six million users of homeopathy in the UK, including soccer star David Beckham, tennis stars Boris Becker and Martina Navratilova, and rugby player Will Greenwood."

    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  17. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Why? Have you been abused by a chiropractor? ;) I did not always trust them. I still argue with mine about some of his claims.
    To get a license in my state you have to go to pre med. Then to a certified a credited college chiropractors spend several years in school. They are not crack pots off the street as so many think. Most are highly educated and know a thing or two about the body.

    I doubt chiropractors make it up on the fly. There is more science than you are willing to admit.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Quite a few pro-athletes wore these stupid things.


    Pro-athletes aren't the people I'd be looking to for science advice. :)
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But they know that in spite of being a chiropractor, not because of it!


    It would be no different if crystal healers or UFO abduction regression hypnotherapists spent a few years training that included some basic physical therapy. The whole foundation of their practice is still demonstrably false, and any rational person would rather place their health care needs in someone whose training is solely based in the scientific method.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  20. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    As well as some highly educated MD's
    I use the pro athletes as an example because if the abuse their body's take. And the relief they get from chiropractic.

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