chi

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by old palden, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    A human body without chi is a corpse.
    So, what is the mysterious current that animates what would otherwise be a rotting meatsack? And are there methods to improve the flow of this current through the wiring of the nervous system?
    Neuroscientists in various research facilities have measured changes in electro-chemical activity in the brain via the use of fMRI scans, and detected structural changes in the brain resulting from meditation practice.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12661646

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-mindfulness-meditation-brain-weeks.html

    http://health.usnews.com/health-new...s-falls-boosts-mental-health-in-seniors-study

    Here are two links, more can easily be found with simple searches.
    Given this, is it really ridiculous to posit that exercises combining physical relaxation and mental concentration bring some benefit to the organism?

    Yes there's a lot of ridiculous babble about mystical philosophies and the worldviews and practices associated with them, but there's also a large body of evidence that chi gung and tai chi practice provide methods that bring measurable benefits to the human organism, particularly when performed with something resembling a meditative mental focus.

    Not supernatural, just natural.


    .
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Punching the clown probably brings about similar results and is more fun
     
  3. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

    eat salty bananas. (not as silly as it sounds; the electrical impulse that travels along the axon of neurons is based around relative concentrations of sodium and potassium ions)

    Hardly surprising, almost any repetitive action or task causes electrochemical and structural changes in the brain - it's how it works.


    No, not at all. But none of that requires chi in the explanation of said benefits.
     
  4. Osu,


    Very very interesting articles Old_Palden, thank you. :)
    There is no mention of Qi anywhere in them though... maybe you are trying to push your beliefs a little bit further than intended here?


    Osu!
     
  5. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    "What is Chi?" Answer: Nothing. Because it does not exist. Or at least, there is yet to be sufficient evidence presented to support its existence. And that makes skepticism a much stronger argument. Like I said in a previous thread about Chi Gung, it's invalid to say, "Well, you can't disprove its existence, so it must be true." Bollocks. There comes a point where we must draw a line at airy philosophical statements and examine the cold, hard scientific data. Besides, the burden of proof lies with advocates of Chi. We skeptics didn't just wake up one day and say, "Chi is bullcrap." Our skepticism is a response to supporters of a concept, a theory, making a claim without sufficient evidence to back it up. They made the claim, they have to provide the proof. It's no coincidence more evidence has been presented by skeptics than by supporters. If we consider Occam's Razor, which states that with all things being equal the simplest explanation is also the most likely (a simplified definition), then doesn't it stand that it is more likely that the human nervous system is simply conducting electrical signals rather than a mystical, (conveniently) invisible river of life energy?

    As Fred in China stated, those links you posted show nothing to support the existence of Chi. Or even reference the concept for that matter. There is no doubt that meditation and self-reflection can bring about positive changes to mental health. Heck, sports psychologists have been using such techniques to improve performance of elite athletes for years. Do they call it cultivating Chi? No. Does it support the existence of Chi? No. They're just mechanisms to change one's state of mind.

    Advocates of Chi often refer to an "overwhelming" body of evidence to support its existence, which is usually as mystical and invisible as Chi itself. Studies into Chi are often problematic and difficult to compare to each other as they lack a common nomenclature. [White P., Golianu B., Zaslawski C., Choi S.H. (2006). "Standardisation in Acupuncture Research." Evidence-based Complimentary and Alternative Medicine 4 (2). pp267-270.]

    As stated in the Chi Gung thread, the concept of Chi doesn't fit the paradigm of Western science - that is, advocates of Chi are yet to produce any significant evidence that can be accurately measured and quantified by objective observation and testing to a standard that meets the consensus of the general scientific community. A US National Institute of Health consensus statement on acupuncture said that concepts such as Chi "are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information." [http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm]

    In clinical medicine there is no convincing evidence that practices which cultivate Chi, such as internal Chi Gung or acupuncture, are at all effective for pain and disease management. [Lee M., Pittler M., Ernst E. (2009). "Internal Chi Gung for pain conditions: a systematic review." JournL of Pain 10 (11). pp1121-1127]*

    Chi, like God and black holes, belongs in the realm of unproven theories. Such things are merely hypotheses. But why is the concept of Chi, and its advocates, ridiculed so much? Well, I think like religion, Chi provides an avenue for idiots to claim supernatural abilities and stroke their massive egos and even make a little money along the way. Nowhere is this more prevalent than in martial arts. Demonstrations of "Chi power" in martial arts can all be alternatively explained using simple biomechanics and physics (Occam's Razor, remember?) I remember one dingbat Tai Chi bloke at a martial arts tournament in Germany who claimed his ability to break coconuts with his hand was the result of cultivating his Chi through years of martial arts practice. A fat Dutch fella watching in the audience came on to the matted area, laid a coconut on the breaking table and repeated the exact same feat. Dutch Fatty had no previous martial arts experience. At the extreme end of the scale we have full-on loony tunes conmen like George Dillman with his no-touch and kiai knockouts and Ashida Kim with his ability to fly and turn invisible. The concept of Chi combined with the gullability of people to believe something without objectively testing the evidence (of which there is little, if any, in terms of supporting Chi) that allows these utter morons to believe they're one of the goddamned X-Men.

    "What is Chi?" It's a frickin' joke.
     
  6. osu,
    Hummmm, we don't know that

    Yes, this is more accurate

    Hummmmm, we also don't know if they are "just" that; I personally suspect that there is probably more to it.

    LOL - I think there are more pieces of evidence regarding black holes than Chi... Yet, this is humbling to realize how little we do know!

    Yes it does..... and it doesn't help to see clear and understand what is really going on..... it also doesn't help reasonable communications and interactions on the subject as it is like trying to reconcile hooligans from opposite football teams!

    That is your opinion, and I'll respect it, but really, we don't know for sure...


    Osu!
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes we do - it does nothing, and I do mean NOTHING that cannot be gained elsewhere by NOT doing chi gung or related exercises.

    Not one single "chi feat" cannot be duplicated by just...well by just doing it. Teh well-being is easily (and again I mean EASILY) explained by placebo theory - this does not invalidate individual experience, it just demystifies it

    Chi should have been written off long ago, but because it is oriental in concept it maintains a sense of mystery because the west has only had relatively recent exposure to it and there is a passion for a bit of "oriental spice".


    Chi is an archaic term that still clings around like a turd that just won't flush....time to break out the bog brush
     
  8. Osu,

    I can't say I disagree, but your statements seem too general to accept as they are... yet, I cannot blame you for offering sweeping statements, because the concept of Chi suffers from being in itself very poorly defined; there is no clear boundary, and because we don't understand well what is going on, it is very hard to put a clear boundary on it.
    Indeed, some of what is usually attributed to Chi can probably be explained otherwise.

    Say we or someone competent (which I am not pretending to be) listed all the effects, actions, phenomena that are attributed to Chi; we could therefore put a likely explanation, cause, on some, or maybe all of them.
    Doing so, we would sort of classify and begin to understand each "unit" component.

    Fast forward, the end result would be one of two: either all the boxes are checked, or they are not. In the latter case, we would have a narrower definition to work with. The former (all boxes checked) would make us conclude that Chi did not exist outside of explainable causes and effects, unless the aggregate effect was greater than the sum of the parts.

    I tend to agree with what you say that Chi is an archaic concept... that does not make it or the people that used it to explain their observations wrong; IMHO, what it means is that it is the best way they figured to explain something they otherwise did not understand ---- the mystique around it is therefore not a big surprise.
    A narrower definition, or a compound synergistic effect of multiple causes (if it exists) might still require us to "invent" a term to name it (or recycle the use of "Chi"), even if we still don't understand it at that moment.

    My personal opinion, which is not a conviction, and which I certainly can't corroborate with hard data, is that Chi encompasses multiple causes and effects, and that the compound effect cannot be fully explained by the sum of the parts........... But, of course, it is just my feeling about it, and will certainly be contradicted or refined as our understanding grows.


    Another possible explanation is that Chi does not exist per se, but because we are talking about "hard to see" (or feel) relationships between feebly expressed outcomes, someone figured that by "inventing" the concept to describe what was going on, it would be easier to understand and/or direct our focus on it in training... (you decry Asian myths, but Asians are very very practical people, and the fact that it works (to help a student understand or focus) trumps the precise scientific description of it... then, of course, the "secret" of this invention disappeared when the "master" died...


    Osu!
     
  9. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    Chi, Ki, Prana, Orgone - words used to describe the energy that flows through and about the body - the energy body extends beyond the physical, in several layers of differing densities & frequencies

    Kirlian Photography is a way of photographing the human energy field

    The energies that flow without also flow within

    http://www.kirlian.org/kirlian.htm

    A process that allows diagnosis of health problems currently manifest or likely to manifest by analysis of kirlian photographs of energetic fields has been developed, called kirlian diagnostics

    http://kirlianresearch.com/kirlian_diagnostic.html


    If you want proof of chi that you can see or touch, i reckon this could be a good starting point
     
  10. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  11. Osu,


    Yes (I had to look it up, but I had heard of it)...
    Why are you asking? :)


    Osu!
     
  12. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    it's a bit annoying - i made a post last night with some links about kirlian photography & kirlian diagnostics but for some reason the post hasn't been posted, saying instead it had to be checked by a moderator

    i guess mods don't work mondays eh lol

    osu!
     
  13. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    what i'd like to say is that there always seems to be a thread related to "chi - does it exist" on any & all tai chi forum - it's like it's compulsory, some unwritten law of the internet

    the compulsory thread generally has someone who is very newtonian-esque in their thinking (bear in mind that even einstein's relativistic model of the universe has been largely superceded, but the general population still lives in a newtonian world view (the inaccurate idea that objects that appear separate and unconnected actually are separate)) harping on with great authority that chi does not exist as you can't prove it

    the cutting edge of western science is now describing that we live in a field reality, that everything is intimately connected and interwoven

    chi is the chinese word for bio energy - called ki in japanese (kiai, the famous japanese karate shout translates as spirit focus or to bring spirit together) - prana in sanskrit, orgone in english

    in the mid nineties i became interested in and started practising energy healing

    one famous system of energy healing is called reiki - this translates as universal life force energy - it's hands on "spiritual" healing

    i worked for many years with many people, practising reiki with them - the method being to use myself as a channel for universal life force energy to flow into the other person, naturally going to areas it is needed (just as water flows downhill & round bends)

    through correlating my experiences & feedback from people i worked with i began to understand the universe and myself in a more holistic way

    i learned to bring my conscious awareness to part of myself that was previously subconscious

    i realised that we are entirely interconnected & composed entirely of energy

    if someone wishes to call this energy chi then ok - but i speak english so i use an english word - energy


    for me the whole argument is as daft as fish swimming about going "water, water, what's all this rubbish i've heard about water - i've never seen any of the stuff"
     
  14. Osu,


    Many links in a post by a new member are checked by the mods; that's a way to fight spam I guess.

    Thank you for your post, very interesting.
    Coming back to kirlian photography, what are you precisely trying to say? :)


    Osu!


    PS: Also, choose a thread to post in, Xposting over Xthreads is not encouraged on MAP. ;)
     
  15. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    kirlian diagnostics is a method of using kirlian photographs to diagnose people's diseases, illnesses & other manifestations of imbalance

    pictures of a form of chi being used practically & in an evidence based way
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Kirlian photography was discredited years ago - it is horsecrap; the fact people still push it shows how desperate people are to cling to this type of nonsense....or how they are desperate to make a quick buck

    I notice that photography - a western scientific development - is judged ok to measure this phenomena.....funny that such western methods don't fit the paradigm when it suits
     
  17. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    dismiss it if you will mate, i'm not that bothered

    people with more knowledge than you about the subject are getting on with the research

    it's not in the mainstream as the paradigm shift required to take it on board is not something the big pharma medical model driven western medicine is currently capable of

    but we are getting there slowly

    a lot of the best research is being done in russia, where kirlian diagnostics is a diagnostic procedure recognised by their medical body of authority


    from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15605819

    [Kirlian diagnostics in a theraputic practice].
    [Article in Russian]
    Pesotskaia LA, Ilinchuk IV, Tsybul'skaia IV, Gorban' EV.
    Abstract
    118 adult patients with respiratory, cardiovascular, digestive, urino-genital or endocrinological diseases have been observed. Kirlian diagnostics on palm finger radiation has been used along with common clinico-laboratory methods. Data comparison of these methods showed that Kirlian diagnostics can be used in clinical differential diagnostics as an supplementary method to determine the severity of the pathological process, its pathogenesis, functional state of compensatory reactions. It helps to determine preclinical and residual signs of a disease.



    from http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=666438


    ABSTRACT

    Medicine has long been challenged to detect disease before it can do irreversible damage, usually by means of invasive tests after the presentation of symptoms. This paper introduces a unique diagnostic tool, the Instant Kirlian Diagnostic System (IKiDS) which derives from the work of the Kirlians of Russia in 1939. It delineates both the disease process and its energetic precursors in the human energy field, allowing for treatment and lifestyle changes before real damage occurs. IKiDS utilises a sensor, high voltage electronics and computer software to “capture” an energy discharge from the fingertips which contains valuable diagnostic information. The research summary is based on analysis of over 1000 sets of prints. Whilst some diagnostic puzzles remain, it is clear that IKiDS has impressive diagnostic and evaluative capabilities. Furthermore, it is accurate, user friendly and offers a complete picture of the physical, mental and emotional condition in “real time”. Future research directions are indicated
     
  18. Osu,


    Keeping an open mind is something most people forgot how to do in the west... The shift started after JP Morgan refused to finance Nicholas Tesla & Thomas Edison buried him!
    Does that mean that every fancy eastern theory will come through? Surely not, but it is my expectation that some will...

    The only sure thing with certainty, is that it is a fleeting reality!


    Osu!
     
  19. Mobile Dogwash

    Mobile Dogwash Valued Member

    my mind is so open my brain fell out :eek:
     
  20. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Howly cow. They got that on IEEE. That's pretty damn good. I'll be really impressed when they get it in the medical journals too.
     

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