Chi/Ki - the good, the bad, the ugly...

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by embra, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Agreed. I think thats why I take the view that I do. For instance, if I have a training injury and I lay quiet for an hour, I can get up and still have the same, say, limited range-of-motion. Compared to that I can get off the table after an acupuncture treatment and notice a considerable improvement in my range-of-motion. I think the range of motion is measureable, and I am guessing that there may possibly be some way to assess the lessening of discomfort or pain, IDK. At any rate there is some measurable change even if I am not sure what the dynamics behind it might be. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Try a bit of visualisation or something similar, even just positive thinking or slow breathing and a determination to move normally once you get up. You might be surprised by how effective it is.

    Pain and discomfort are subjective, so it's hard to measure them. Missing a night's sleep before hand will make pain worse for example - you can't really compare it in any objective way. As to the range of motion - that'll most likely be due to the pain causing tension. As you suppress the pain, the muscle relaxes and so the range of motion is increased and becomes easier - again there are many other things which could have the same effect. Painkillers combined with these other methods would likely be more effective still - whereas combining 'placebo' methods is unlikely to help any more than a single placebo method.

    For a training injury as you describe, not really, no. Certainly no change that can be effectively measured. This is why it gets frustrating when claims are made that alternative therapies work on this type of thing, but can't be expected to (say) help the recovery time of a broken arm.
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Agreed, but then I get confused about what it is that demonstrated.

    Certainly I don't think there is anything magical or mystical about what is happening in terms of Physics, right? But what about the nature of the Wellness of the individual?

    For example, if a Western Boxer is struck at a particular angle of the jaw, there is no missing that he is knocked unconcious and falls to the floor, yes? I'm sure noone in the audience would miss this. But I am thinking that same punch ought to have hit some point on a meridian and produced a result, right?

    OR..... would a TCM person conclude that hitting that TCM point at that particular time unbalances the Wellness of the body sufficiently to induce unconciousness. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    You're referring to the button, right? It's not just Western boxers that applies to - it's pretty much anything with a human skeletal structure. A strike to the button causes the head to take a very violent, angular jolt which can cause an impact of the brain against the interior of the skull - hence unconsciousness. It just happens to be that the most mechanically advantageous point to strike is that little point on the jaw.

    It would probably depend on the person. Some would go with the mechanical explanation, some would go with spirit energy, some with chi, some with meridians, some with magic, and so forth.
     
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I think thats exactly right. There are probably a lot of "home remedies" and alternative practices that can induce relief for one degree to another. There is certainly a whole protocol for the use of hot and cold compresses for training injuries. There are also anti-inflamatories, pain-relievers, massage etc etc. People use these things and reprt that they feel better. Some seem to find a more agreeable result with one thing rather than another. I can't say why this is. Individual constitutions, I suppose.

    But what we are discussing here is whether or not something produces a measurable result, yes? So, I'm guessing that if it takes 6 weeks for a bone fracture to mend, and it happened in 4 weeks with the use of QI GONG practice, is this the sort of thing you are after?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  6. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Pretty much - although testing just one person won't really help, since people heal at different rates. You need at least several groups so that you can give some the treatment, others no treatment, others a placebo and still others traditional medical treatment. You also need enough of each of these that any differences in healing speeds between them can be (roughly) averaged out, and preferably to monitor them to ensure that they are not doing anything differently from one another.

    Medical testing is not an easy task - probably why it's often done sloppily.
     
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks....thats why I thought I would ask. I just wanted to make sure that we weren't simply chewing-over the idea that different cultures may have differing frames of reference for explaining the same phenomenon.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I may be wrong but I thought that there had been a huge body of such work accomplished since the advent of the growing communications and exchanges between the West and the PRC. Seems that there are a number of groups that are investigating just this very thing. I don't know if such insights would be readily applicable to, say, a combat situation but it might be worth pursuing. Thoughts?

    BTW: I just GOOGLE-d "Traditional Chinese Medicine" research and got a large number of hits.
    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  9. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Unfortunately a lot of this body of work is unreliable, untrustworthy, not repeatable, or just plain dross. There are a few good bits in there, but large portions have to be taken with a couple of handfuls of salt.

    Many of the groups investigating it are also commercially linked to the (large and rapidly growing) industry, so inevitably cannot be trusted. It's similar to the various papers which show sticking a piece of quartz (only £39.99!) to your mobile phone reduces the electromagnetic radiation. Somehow it does this without in any way diminishing the ability of your phone to send a signal.

    I would love to see serious, independent studies into this - and some have happened. As yet I don't know of any that are actually conclusive.

    http://www.library.nhs.uk/rss/newsA...ttp://www.library.nhs.uk/resources/?id=177801 - good example, note that one of the first comments is that further research is needed to confirm (note also that the tabloids involved simply reported it as absolute proof that acupuncture is the cure-all for everything).
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well....... now that we know that Acupuncture can cure everything, I suppose we should start notifying the various research organizations that their services are no longer necessary. Guess I'll start with the American Cancer Society and proceed from there.

    Seriously, though, it seems that there would be at least a few groups who have approached the subject with sound Scientific Method. Certainly some of the more reputable Medical Schools must have made efforts in this direction, wouldn't you think? I remember the huge publicity that followed abdomenal surgury in the PRC using only Acupuncture for anesthetic. There was a great interest for quite a while after that. I think the same thing happened after the TAI CHI master Bow Sim reported that her Cancer was successfully treated using TCC and TCM under the supervision of a relative.
    I think there may also be exchange programs between Chinese and American Medical Schools but I'd have to dig a bit to identify which ones. Any idea?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Kids at my high school did a comparative study on traditional chinese medicine and western drugs to eliminate the same bacteria in petri-dishes.
    Chinese medicine did better.
    Some will attribute it to "Chi" but the conclusion that the people who the study attributed it to the variety of ingredients used in Chinese Medicine that have unidentified antibacterial properties that may only work when mixed with other ingredients and dissolved.
    So Chinese medicine is like Amazon medicine as it hasn't been fully tested and identified for a variety of compounds because of the number of complex chemicals in the initial ingredients and then more formed when they combine.
    E.G. "When a medicine man dies without passing his arts on to the next generation, the tribe and the world loses thousands of years of irreplaceable knowledge about medicinal plants." (http://www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm)
     
  12. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

    Well, I tried this yesterday, and got the result you said I would get. But, I didn't use sugar, I used a paperclip that I found lying on the floor. I tried it on 3 students (they were the only ones around at the time), and tried a few different permutations and combinations of which hand was holding, which order I did it in etc...

    My (pretty unscientific, as my experimental design was absolutely non-existent) conclusion? It's got absolutely nothing to do with the substance, and everything to do with where the holder's attention is focused. Holding the object draws the person's focus from holding their arm out, and makes it easier to push their limb down.

    A couple of students also noticed that when the object was placed in their hand, they instinctively cupped it a bit, changing which muscles were activated (it also seemed to elicit a sympathetic response in the non-holding hand). As a result of this observation, we tried the same test with the hand open, versus the hand closed (in a loose fist) around the paperclip - same outcome. Then, hand open, versus hand closed with nothing in it - same outcome.

    Still, a nice little 'trick' to do to get their brains thinking critically.

    Oh, and table sugar (sucrose) is not bad for the body per se. It is composed of glucose (which is used by the body's cells for energy) and fructose (which is metabolised by the liver and used for energy). It is only excess sugar, surplus to the body's daily energy requirements (or to the liver's capacity to break down fructose) that is detrimental, as the body will convert the excess into fatty acids, then into body fat (and this in itself is only detrimental if people have a consistent overall energy surplus in their diet over the medium to long term).
     
  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    You are a true genius for testing this.
     
  14. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Believe it or not fellow Mappers a doctor told me once that even ALCOHOL in excess can be bad for us!!! Who'da thunk it! :rolleyes:
     
  15. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

    With my Year 8 science classes, I often do little tricks like this to get them questioning their own experiences and to get them thinking scientifically. So far this term, I've moved pencils with my mind, stopped my heart beating, used this trick (with a couple of permutations now), and transferred my weight into another student making them unliftable. (Funnily enough, once you get down to it, everything is explainable by psychology, misdirection and/or physics. ;))

    It gets them thinking: "What did I actually see/experience, compared to what I thought I saw/experienced?" In order to work out what's actually going on, they need to apply Occam's Razor, define clearly what happened and come up with testable explanations and methodologies. It's a nice way to finish up a lesson.

    They're getting better though, now that they're learning how to critically evaluate what they see.
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Another myth in need of dis-spelling, just like the myth that drinking alcohol will make one drunk.

    I can personally report that I have drunk great quantities of alcohol at single sittings and have absolutely no memory of ever being drunk!! :rolleyes:

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  17. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Cool, I'm happy somebody tried it. I first tried it back in 7th grade, but interesting to hear your results. Good work on trying other forms such as closed fist and open, with and without a substance.
     
  18. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Despite a long week, I shall be sacrificing myself in the name of science to try and disprove this myth.
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK....but now we are back to the idea of KI as substanative and directional as compared to a state or condition that can be influenced. I think there is something to be accomplished in considering KI as a state or condition. In this way one could ask, "how do I build KI?" and the answer would be "practice." The more one practices the more the state of efficiency and effectiveness increases. I see a discussion of KI as a substanitive agent (IE. electricity, static electricity, solar energy) simply taking us back to images of Aikido masters with force-fields or electric arcs coming out of their fingers. :bang:

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  20. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Can we all agree now that DBZ was a cartoon and not a documentary?
     

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