Hi,I'm back! I think i'm over getting flamed now so who cares. LOL. I wasn't instigating,Is really just the way i have been trained,thats all. qi to shen and all that good stuff.:hat: I have a real question though. I've been contacted by some people in falun gong/falun dafa. Seems a little spooky,I'm sure what to make of it. I feel because this is a form of qi gong it is on topic. I'm a little concerned about the manner in which this falun gong was presented to me. Any info. on this would be much appreciated. The more info the better in this case. Thank you very much.
falun gong is a ch'i gung sect,some would say cult.An individual,whose name I can't recall without looking it up, started his own ch'i gung and whatever other teachings which eventually blossomed into a large following. Unfortunately for him,this was after the ridiculous ch'i gung craze which had had some individuals with absurd claims to some abilities-(like the ability to change the weather)- in high favor w/certain people high up in the PRC government.After the eventual discrediting of these folks,such ch'i gung followings which had as their center of focus the exalted teachers were quite out of favor w/the government. The Falun gong followers were oppressed by the government,and even more so when some members began to publicly demonstrate against the government about being suppressed.It was a big deal in the news at the time, some even requested asylum from other countries on political grounds due to all that happened.Look up old news articles about it to get the details. The main thing regarding falun gong itself would seem to be that the founder was no heavy ch'i gung master,just another individual who made his body of teachings and acquired a large following.Not unlike what one sees in the world of religion occasionally. Of course,due to the governmental oppression some people overseas decided that fg must be a good thing,but it never really took off in the west big time to my knowledge.There was someone teaching it in my town,(there's a huge alternative/New Age presence here),but I haven't heard or seen anything about it in a while. There was perception by some that fg taught that fg was all one needed for any health purposes,and practitioners would eschew seeing medical professionals for any purpose.Which is a choice,but unlike Christian Science which makes no secret of its usage of prayer in place of seeking certain types of medical aid for some maladies,at the time fg was getting press its practitioners who were asked about this issue gave evasive answers,-I recall one person saying they didn't need to see doctors since as they did fg they didn't get sick,but when asked if they would go if they broke a limb the answer was that sort of thing didn't happen to them.Not a very satisfying answer to a simple inquiry. No idea what the package may be like these days,but as you're using the word "spooky" ....
Yes,I was told a lot on this matter last week,i'm not sure what to make of it. it is very spooky. The thing is i have heard a lot of the things they have to say from other unrelated sources,but not to the same extreme as these guys. Any more info i would like to hear it. thanks!
There is a Falun Gong group near to me. I don't have time to go and have a look see atm. Bearing in mind the cult side of it, I would nevertheless like to go and see what they do. And if it is any good, add it to my QiGong repertoir (sp!)!!
They had a "Meet the Practitioner" lecture or whatever by an fg person at the co-op organic market about two blocks from where I work.I didn't bother,which I might have just to hear what they had to say if it wasn't for the culty thing. I would figure there's enough decent stuff one can get from people w/out having to deal with quasi-religious groups.
I'd be very careful,wait and see. My sifu don't know if it's a cult or not. It might not be a cult, It is usually very hard to get people in those numbers to agree on anything. So there is something there. But i'm concerned about the context of my recent I.M's with a member of it. I don't think you can just go and learn the qi gong set,it's not like that. Also ,there may be no turning back. That's why i'm asking questions, I haven't studied Chinese arts all my life like a lot of other people have. Maybe find someone you trust who's in it. Tell you what, this guy i was talking too on I.M. knew way to much for just a 22 year old kid who never trained in yoga,ninjutsu,taiji,buddhism or Taoists arts. I was very surprised. Thanks
Oh, it is most definately a cult. Knowing that it is a cult, I believe (if one has sufficient experience and life skills) it is possible to go and have a look without becoming indoctrinated. Don't be, weiliquan. I know a couple of people who talk great Martial Arts, yet have virtually NO personal knowledge of anything they speak of. However, they have a talent for memorising large chunks from books and so are capable of what I term "empty speech". Unless you yourself have sufficient knowledge, it is impossible to know if it is genuine, personal knowledge. Take care, weiliquan.
Yes,I see that. But it would be no different then a guy who does the taiji form without believing in what he's doing.Or knowing the principals. Apparently this guy Li,says he jumps dimensions and installs the falun into your energy networks. This falun spins all day and night cultivating qi even when you sleep. So just doing the sets is nothing. Like a guy who thinks yoga is just a bunch of stretching. Many believe in certain types of initiations that occur in your sleep,some yoga people talk of this kind of thing.Usually not in public. Not all people believe that what their doing is just an exercise. I would imagine that it's the same with taiji. So who's to say it's a cult. I don't know. There's 100 million people who believe in it,and apparently are willing to die for it. In china the government is harvesting these practitioners organs ,for god sake. I mean whats going on? You just don't see those kind of numbers in anything that has no truth. So there's something there,but what? And what heavenly plain is it from? Some Christians say Buddhism and taoism is a cult,the devil is qigong. I had to through out a couple Mormons the other day that came to my house. I'm not against their faith but please spare me the propaganda. Right? I felt pretty good about the Mormons though for along time,until i found out about "THE JOY LIST''. piece.
I'm not from falun gong but WOW! This is what the world is really like? Talk about terror. These people are suffering over there ,"bad", scared to death by their own government. at least 45,000 people with their organs stolen,"murdered". Saddam was a nice guy compared to this stuff. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkf2u1Umzi4"]YouTube - Organ harvesting of live Falun Gong practitioners(1/4)[/ame]
I'd be more discerning about whos info you believe. FG have a very extensive propaganda campaign. If you want to experience the extent of their delusion, 1st study some classical Taoism and Buddhism, then have a read of the Falun Dafa, I guarantee you will have a merry old laugh. Also, may be worth joining one of their message boards after and having a chat with a few practitioners. I did this for a bit, it was like speaking with a recording of their texts, quite delusional. At the end of the day, anyone can make up a Qigong system with a little previous experience, but to use such an unbalanced framework as the base, is wrong on many levels. In short FG is a Qigong enhanced master worshiping, world domination aspiring cult. I'd stay away for anything other than investigating or amusement.
Thanks! My sifu is a Taoist, a scholar. I also have some good audio c.d's from my friend in Thailand on Buddhism. The Buddhist's in Thailand think it's a cult,thats what i was told. My sifu is not sure,says there's a lot of stuff out there and leaves it at that. I was concerned about the text type writing that this member did,So i asked,what direct experience's have you had that make you believe what your doing is correct. He had no real answer. I do, Of coarse i don't talk about that too much. It seems that this art if it's true has just about all the power of every single art on the planet in one, Internally I mean. He said that the energy turns you into a God. but hey Steven Segal says he's one. He also talked about having a indestructible body,Sounds like Iron shirt to me. Serpent power, I mean everything. He talked about channeling,remote viewing,out of body stuff. I never even heard about channeling until a couple years ago. So if this guy Li did just make this up,he did his homework. But thanks! I agree, I think. I'm just not sure and with all the conflicting religions out there, It's overwhelming.
You know, those few of their exercises I have seen look like perfectly good qi-gong to me. Just in itself, without any religious or political intention needed. This goes for the Tai-Chi Form as well. No need to believe something. It is a good idea to apply oneself to what one is doing, in both cases I am sure, instead of getting caught up in some ideology. Same is true for Yoga-of-the-more-serious-kind - visions and such are simply to be disregarded.
I'll be frank here: Then what are you linking up too. where's the power from? And yes visions and such are just part of the path.
I found some stuff on Falun Gong,this is text. The main body of teachings is articulated in the core book Zhuan Falun (轉法輪)[25], published in late 1994. According to the texts, Falun Gong (or Falun Dafa) is a complete system of mind-body "cultivation practice" (修煉).[26] Truthfulness (真 Zhen), Compassion (善 Shan), and Forbearance (忍 Ren) are regarded as the fundamental characteristics of the cosmos—an omnipresent nature that permeates and encompasses everything from the most minuscule particles to the most gigantic cosmic bodies. In the process of cultivation, the practitioner is supposed to assimilate himself or herself to these qualities by letting go of attachments and notions, thus returning to the "original, true self." In Zhuan Falun, Li Hongzhi said that "As a practitioner, if you assimilate yourself to this characteristic, you are one that has attained the Tao—it's just such a simple principle." The content of Li Hongzhi's books includes commentaries on questions discussed in China's qigong community for ages. According to David Ownby, Li saw the qigong movement as "rife with false teachings and greedy and fraudulent 'masters'" and set out to rectify it. Li understood himself and Falun Gong as part of a "centuries-old tradition of cultivation," and in his texts would often attack those who taught "incorrect, deviant, or heterodox ways."[4] Qigong scholar David Palmer says Li "redefined his method as having entirely different objectives from qigong: the purpose of practice should neither be physical health nor the development of Extraordinary Powers, but to purify one's heart and attain spiritual salvation... Falun Gong no longer presented itself as a qigong method but as the Great Law or Dharma (Fa) of the universe."[27]. In this next chapter it states that it's not a religious faith,so no cult. Falun Gong draws on oriental mysticism and traditional Chinese medicine, criticizes self-imposed limits of modern science, and views traditional Chinese science as an entirely different, yet equally valid knowledge system. Yuezhi Zhao, professor in the University of California, says it concomitantly borrows the language of modern science in representing its cosmic laws. "Falun gong is not conceptualized as a religious faith; on the contrary, its practitioners, which include doctorate holders from prestigious American universities, see it as 'a new form of science.'"[24] A letter to the Chinese government after the ban. Li Hongzhi responded with a "Brief Statement of Mine" on July 22: “ Falun Gong is simply a popular qigong activity. It does not have any particular organization, let alone any political objectives. We have never been involved in any anti-government activities. I am a cultivator myself, and I have never been destined to be involved in political power. I am just teaching people how to practice cultivation. If one wants to practice qigong well, he/she must be a person of high moral standards... We are not against the government now, nor will we be in the future. Other people may treat us badly, but we do not treat others badly, nor do we treat people as enemies. We are calling for all governments, international organizations, and people of goodwill worldwide to extend their support and assistance to us in order to resolve the present crisis that is taking place in China.[55] United Nation's found the Chinese government guilty. U.N. special rapporteur Manfred Nowak, in December 2007 said "The chain of evidence they [Kilgour and Matas] are documenting shows a coherent picture that causes concern."[69] In November 2008, the United Nations Committee Against Torture made a strong statement on the matter, citing Nowak's note that an increase in organ transplant operations coincides with “the beginning of the persecution of [Falun Gong practitioners]” and who asked for "a full explanation of the source of organ transplants." The Committee stated that it is concerned with the information that Falun Gong practitioners "have been extensively subjected to torture and ill-treatment in prisons and that some of them have been used for organ transplants." They called for the state to immediately conduct an investigation of the claims of organ harvesting, and take measures to ensure that those responsible for such abuses are prosecuted and punished.[21] Apparently Li was highly trained in qigong from a very young age. According to the biography which appeared as an appendix to Zhuan Falun, Li Hongzhi had been taught ways of "cultivation practice" (xiulian) by several masters of the Dao and Buddhist schools of thought from a very young age. This biography says that he was trained by Quan Jue, the 10th Heir to the Great Law of the Buddha School, at age four. He was then trained by a Taoist master at age eight. This master left him at age twelve, and he was then trained by a master of the Great Way School with the Taoist alias of True Taoist, who came from the Changbai Mountains.[38] In this next paragraph it shows that Falun gong was considered by the Chinese government to be good,until it become too powerful of a movement. Falun Gong was introduced to the public by Li Hongzhi on May 13, 1992, in Changchun, Jilin.[39] Invited by qigong organizations from each area, Li traveled to almost all major cities in China from 1992 to 1994 to teach the practice. For the first few years of spreading Falun Gong, Li was granted several awards by Chinese governmental organizations to encourage him to continue promoting what was then considered to be a wholesome practice.[40] Well after reading this i would say it's not a cult,but just qigong. So it looks like to me that these people are just being tormented by other's of authority for doing Qigong. It could be Taiji or any other practice that they chose to attack. The only thing that worries me about this is the fact that "InTheSpirit" was right about their conduct when discussing Falun Dafa. Text like writing and such. Much like the way some Christian's will constantly quote scriptures in casual conversation. The practitioners are definitly "Attached" to a very high degree. From what I've heard myself.
"The only thing that worries me about this is the fact that "InTheSpirit" was right about their conduct when discussing Falun Dafa. Text like writing and such. Much like the way some Christian's will constantly quote scriptures in casual conversation. The practitioners are definitly "Attached" to a very high degree. From what I've heard myself." Which is rather culty behavior. And it's not "just" ch'i gung,it has a body of teachings unrelated to ch'i gung,such as truthfulness,compassion,etc as "fundamental characteristics of the universe". "Qigong scholar David Palmer says Li "redefined his method as having entirely different objectives from qigong: the purpose of practice should neither be physical health nor the development of Extraordinary Powers, but to purify one's heart and attain spiritual salvation... Falun Gong no longer presented itself as a qigong method but as the Great Law or Dharma (Fa) of the universe."[27]." Such a belief system sounds more like religion or,if you will,spiritual teachings, than not.For the founder to teach such things as in the article you cite and then to say it's only ch'i gung is rather contradictory on his part.Or rather a flat out lie. Anyway,in this instance these people were not being persecuted because they practiced ch'i gung,but because they belonged to a huge movement which borders on a new religion,and could/did lead to questioning or being at odds with the government and the ideology of the PRC. You can't have a higher authority,political or ideological in the PRC than the party line.The only reason the Shaolin Temple is an up and running concern is simply for the $$$$$ it generates.No matter how the PRC markets it,it's certainly a far,far cry from what it was originally, a legit Buddhist order.And not a place that was mainly about CMAs,nor a place that really was influential on CMAs.But you probably don't want to say/publish such thoughts in the PRC. I fail to see how these doctorate holders from prestigious American universities can look upon it a "new form of science" when concepts such as salvation,purifying one's heart,etc,have about as much to do with science as the so-called Christian Science sect. As to the founder,I can only say that when fg first started making the news what I recall is that he was another of the many ch'i gung figures who wasn't someone especially steeped in the traditions/knowledge,just someone who sold a package.Of course this could be totally false,-(and perhaps even irrelevant)-and I can't cite sources as it was so long ago.But support from the PRC during the ch'i gung craze was no guarantee that someone was anything special,or indeed anything more than another snake oil salesman.Look up some of the big ch'i gung figures who had governmental support during the 80's in the PRC.A tragic laugh. One should also note that political disturbances began to be caused in some other Asian countries at the time due to ch'i gung groups/movements,and such groups/practices were banned/squashed. China especially has a history of political and revolutionary movements being intertwined with ch'i gung practices.It's not surprising that fg was suppressed.Not that I'm condoning it.But I come from a socio-political background directly descended from England,the first country where underlings,both the upper crust and the common people began to question/revolt,both militarily,and even more important,through legal action, against those who had the Mandate of Heaven.We don't even think about it.And it's not as if objecting to,or even public demonstrations against governmental policies threatens the entire governmental system here.In the PRC,however,such things if allowed to continue may be construed as the government losing its mandate.In spite of such beliefs being a holdover from the past,some cultural beliefs,including among the ruling elite, could not be extinguished even by the new socialist system.
This is some good reading,very interesting to me. Might be toilet paper to someone else though. I find it interesting to go back and figure out what the mind set was of the people who were doing CMA and what shaped the arts through out time. " Taoists started to experiment with meditation, dieting, and breathing exercises that supposedly could delay bodily decay and death. Soon, legends began to circulate about immortals who could fly on clouds and appear and disappear at will and who lived on sacred mountains or remote islands for countless years, sustained by dew or magical fruits. Chinese history reports that in 219 B.C.E., the Ch�in emperor, Shih Huang-Ti, sent a fleet of ships with 3,000 boys and girls to find the legendary island of P�eng-lai, the abode of the immortals, to bring back the herb of immortality. Needless to say, they did not return with the elixir, but tradition says that they populated the islands that came to be known as Japan. " During the Han dynasty (206 B.C.E.�220 C.E.), the magical practices of Taoism reached a new peak. It was said that Emperor Wu Ti, though promoting Confucianism as the official State teaching, was much attracted to the Taoist idea of physical immortality. He was particularly taken up with concocting �immortality pills� by alchemy. In the Taoist view, life results when the opposing yin and yang (female and male) forces combine. Thus, by fusing lead (dark, or yin) and mercury (bright, or yang), the alchemists were imitating the process of nature, and the product, they thought, would be an immortality pill. Taoists also developed Yogalike exercises, breath-control techniques, dietary restrictions, and sexual practices that were believed to strengthen one�s vital energy and prolong one�s life. Their paraphernalia included magic talismans that were said to render one invisible and invulnerable to weapons or enable one to walk on water or fly through space. They also had magic seals, usually containing the yin-yang symbol, affixed on buildings and over doorways to repel evil spirits and wild beasts. " By the second century C.E., Taoism became organized. A certain Chang Ling, or Chang Tao-ling, established a Taoist secret society in western China and practiced magical cures and alchemy. Because each member was levied a fee of five pecks of rice, his movement came to be known as the Five-Pecks-of-Rice Taoism (wu-tou-mi tao). Claiming that he received a personal revelation from Lao-tzu, Chang became the first �celestial master.� Finally, it was said that he succeeded in making the elixir of life and ascended alive to heaven, riding a tiger, from Mount Lung-hu (Dragon-Tiger Mountain) in Kiangsi Province. With Chang Tao-ling there started a centuries-long succession of Taoist �celestial masters,� each said to be a reincarnation of Chang. Some cool reading, the mind set of these artist's.
If one enjoys doing some exercises which have a certain effect such as strengthening or cleansing, then they will have that effect. No need to theorize about it. Even if they do not have such effect, one can still imagine it has. Then, visions and such, as a result from the dreaming wishful mind. Human mind can dream up lots of things. Nothing wrong with it either. That is where all the stories and legends are coming from. We like to collect our world into a certain mind frame, of which the scientific frame is only one.
I find it also interesting how instructors view things. My chen style instructor doesn't believe in any of these things,tells people to leave it alone,pay no intention to the things that might not be explainable. After all things like that just don't exist. My sifu is a bit different type of guy though, some say he's nuts. But the problem is i cant beat him,and neither could my 480 pound (grappling partner) who's from the sheriff's department and has trained in martial arts for more then 25 years. Also not only does he walk right threw my chen style instructor but i'm sure his whole school of 20 couldn't stop him. So i guess I'll just have to listen to my crazy sifu. But hey,what do i know,I'm just some mma guy,remember?
