Chen PH Demo by CXW, Chen Bing, and Chen Ziqiang

True.

Not true.

You know, that's one of those ideas that is so often seen on such a superficial level. You don't owe me a hundred bucks - I'll tell you this for free - what it really means is that we are part of nature ourselves. It means observing the natural postural and system properties of our own physiology, to find natural principles of human movement.

Sure, inspiration can come from seeing a tree bend, or a crane or tiger stalk its prey - but the actual 'viewing nature' means exploration of natural aspects of our own physiology. It's so obvious really, like all truly wise things. he old masters weren't after mystical sounding stuff; they were after practical development. Intuitive exploration of our natural ability IS observing and learning from nature. In fact, it's the only way to truly develop - as seen in MMA, where it's used more than anywhere.

If you want, be all like 'you must be like a tree, with strong root and wispy branches...' but that's there to make you understand something about yourself, not really about trees.

Yeah, you know, I used to say that all the time, like a mantra. Actually, I lied a million times a day, in various ways. I wasn't a conscious deceiver, as I don't think you are - we lie by choosing to believe things that aren't true, and then finding ways to talk things in to existence that aren't really there. Like this silly conversation we're having now - when it would be far easier just to admit the truth - that the demo was a compliant demo, not really a serious attempt to out-fox the old fox.

I mean, why is it so hard just to to acknowkedge the truth? There are a million ways to lie to ourselves, even for honest men.

Well, there never was any threat, was there? Not really? I mean, I've heard plenty of stories of CXW having challenge fights, and I'm sure some are true. But, even though this demo may show the idea, it doesn't really show a resisting/attacking opponent. In situations like that, techniques can be made to work yet still leave doubt as to whether they would really work in a more real situation.

Chen taiji has kicks and punches. But that's not the point - he can seriously resist/attack bytrying to throw or knock CXW over. Thing is, like I said, that can never happen - COULD never happen - not unless CXW insisted and insisted again that they really try best.

 

Weliquan,

this is CXW playing with a non compliant partner who won't do a compliant drill with him. See the difference now?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE"]YouTube - Chen Xiao Wang vs Liao Bai[/ame]

 

Thanks but i seen this vid like 6 years ago. I didn't understand it completely then. now I do!
My friend you don't need to try to change my mind about anything. I'm just another Martial artist. you don't have to try to prove you know more then I do. I'm just looking to make friends thats all.
My history in martial arts goes back 26 - 27 years now.
kenpo,jujitsu,boxing,kickboxing,(a little ninjutsu),MMA,chen and yang taiji.
so I'm sure I don't need to be shown.
have a good day, got to go to work.

 

Well, i simply put it to you my friend that there was no threat to speak of in the first clip. That is about all i wished to illustrate with posting that other clip, and I think the comparison works well to that end. Because clearly in the clip I posted there is a threat, and the difference may as well be like night to day.

 

Weiliquan-

The fact that this was a demo, leaves some room for Fire's suggestion that there is a degree of subservience going on. But 100%? No way. Chen Bing *is* trying here and there. Those whom have never met or touched CXW could never glean so much as a hint to what he's cabable of.

-----------
As for the incident with Liao Bai, CXW says quite clearly, "I'll just defend". That's what he said he'd do, and that's all he did. To take the weak and cheap "pushes" by Liao as some kind of "up" would be to really cheapen the quantifications of loss and win. Point sparring tourneys are more intense. Had the incident been a real, all out old fasioned challenge, I'd have put every red cent I've got on CXW.

Westerners in general really have NO IDEA as to how much the Chinese keep hidden from them. When westerners cite that as some kind of cop out, it only leaves the Chinese to point out the westerner's pomposity- by denying them high level teaching. Which is complaint #1 regarding CXW.

 

I would take chen bing as a serious threat.
Although I understand firequan's and your point of view completly.
Chen bing did "EVERYTHING"!!!!!!!! he could "with-in" the confines of that set.
I do not believe he held back in anyway. Like I said it's RIVER but you missed that and so did firequan.
That little lesson was real,and did cost me one hundred dollars to learn.
Believe me it was worth one thousand!
peace.

 

Yes he was only maintaining all sided support. Well I'm a WESTERNER and you are totally right again they hide all kinds of stuff. Even the real example I listed above dosn't even stratch the very edge of the surface of the things I seen! LOL!!!
"people are supported by a pin"

 

I'vegot26/27 years experience as well. Not just of training, but of listening to the way people twist information, often not even aware they are doing it themselves.

What you really want is to come on here, say what you think is so, then never, ever have it questioned. You know, I hate that. I'm sick of it. You want to state that something untrue is true, then you want to squish all dissent from your viewpoint. There are always two main ways of doing that - the threatening way, calling people stupid and offering to kill them, and the 'Oh I just want to give my opinion , why do you waste so much time arguing shouldn't you be training?' way.

WHat you're saying is a kind of smear - I know you don't mean it consciously like that- but just think about it. You're saying 'hey I just wanted to make friends and you're like some kind of ass-hole questioning me.'

As for changing your mind, well, what you're saying, again, is 'I know the truth so don't argue with me, I just come here to tell you the truth!' Well if it's true, you should be able to present the argument for it, shouldn't you?

Not being mean - just saying, if you don't want real truth, why would I even want you as a friend?

 

That's just silly. Never in a million years would Chen Bing try to make CXW look bad. I remember my old coach telling me that during a demo with Chen Zheng Lei, CZL found out that my coach was a san da champion, and told him to really attack him, full force, for the demo - but my coach said, he couldn't; it would be such a breech of cultural etiquette, he just couldn't.

Anyway, 'holding back' in push hands, or going full force in 'push hands' - either way doesn't really mean much.

 

Regardless of what CXW is capable of, all anyone is saying is that his, or anyone's, capability isn't demonstrated in co-operative demos.

Push hands is a game/training exercise. I've met a few people who were good at push hands, but useless once it comes to actually fighting.



You know what, what if I just choose not to believe you? After all, it's you who is saying how 'secretly' great you and yours are - so who has the most to lose, I wonder, if I don't believe you? I think it's you - I think you have the most to lose, as in, the illusion you want us to believe... but you want me to think it's me, as in, I won't get to know the secret truth - the 'secret' that's boasted about a ten thousand times a day over the net.

I can buy that CXW was put in an embarrassing situation - although, maybe he asked for it?

As for you smearing the other guy, what's he supposed to do, say 'I'm going to surprise attack you now....' ?

It's really just an example of how you use words to twist perception of facts. 'CXW looks bad so we'll blame it o the other guy....' Just like people like to blame me, for not believing them....

Well we'll never know. It's like religion - we're supposed to have faith. Having said that, it's not CXW - I notice he doesn't go on the internet saying he'd kick people's asses. Like a lot of these things, it's you - the fluffers - who go on the internet talking up the badness of these people, when they themselves just don't do that. So what we should really see is you - the fluffer, show your stuff.

Yeah, I can imagine that's how you were taught. I'd keep stuff from you as well.

Unfortunately, it's like my secret world destroying technique - it's just so powerful I can never use it, and I have to keep it secret.

 

What your keeping a world destroying technique from me as the man living in a van outside my house how could you.

 

I'll have to check newly released government documents to see if you're ear-marked for the secret moon bunker. Otherwise, the first thing you know about it will be the last thing you ever know. It's a special technique that works by splitting a qi particle - the most powerful release of energy known even to those who have attained Buddhahood.

 

Every-time I see this kind of comment, I'm interested In hearing what that person has to say. So if you do have some good stuff that is not normally talked about I for one would like to here about it. If your serious about what your talking about and have good communication skills maybe we could share information. I do have several private video's on stuff that is nearly never talked about on the net. anyways I am totally against b.s. martial arts and fully understand that there is in fact tons of misinformation out there. So please if you have something good let me know.
thanks.

 

Secret skills, eh? Personally, I like those old masters who say things like, there are no secrets - only hard work and wise thought. And I trust them farmore than I trust the poor souls who excuse poor level on the grounds that it's just being shown to confuse stupid Westerners. Who is really the stupid one, I wonder...? The one who recognises that there are no secrets, only hard work, or the one who seeks to by-pass hard work by learning secrets?

 

Was that directed toward me firequan? Hope not.
Well it's nice to see your in a good mood today.

 

I have private moods and professional moods, just like I have private policy and professional policy; so even though my private mood is gay and care free, my professional mood is always to robustly denounce and challenge what I believe to be false, such as the idea that Chinese masters hold back the 'real stuff' from Westerners. Not only is it silly, it makes all Chinese out to be racists who con their students.

I'm sure there are some teachers who hold back some information - although, in my experience, it's more a matter of it not even being possible to teach certain things to certain people, simply because they aren't dilligent or capable enough to learn them. Many times I want to show people more advanced stuff, but I'm not happy with their basics, so there's no point.

But on the other evil hand, it's like an excuse - like, let's all pretend that people who don't look very convincing secretly are, because secretly, they know secret skills. You know, that's a dangerous, false and corrupting way of looking at the world. And everyone should recognise it as a tactic deliberately used to mislead and misdirect us, and to deliberately make it both impossible to ever have our assesments accepted as legitimate, and in fact, even to ever be in a position to assess others.

I say we can assess them - not only that, but ALL the secrets of Quan are natural, and hidden in full view. But that doesn't mean that other lie, of saying 'look, it's there in front of you, his amazing root and qi power - you're just too low level to see it...' yadda yadda. That's the evil twin of the true meaning of hidden in full view. Hidden in full view means that the secrets are all straightforwards, obvious even, and require no ideological massage to be made real.

See, that's my professional attitude - personally, I'm care free and off to do more training. However, people do use that as a weapon of argument against me constantly - the accusation that I'm mean spirited or miserable or even depressed and needing to attack someone or something. As if it'smy fault that they tell lies or promote fraud. Actually I'm pretty quiet thesedays, and very calm - nothing at all tod o with my professional stand on fraud, which requires a robust attitude.

 

It appears that you have a lot of hate firequan.
Where's the peace?
I wouldn't really classify secrets as secrets. More like different people know different things.
No two schools are alike unless they are run by the same guy,for the most part.
I don't believe that Chinese masters really want to hold back on their teaching's.
In fact i think that they are dying too find the right person to share with.

When I first met my sifu and seen that taiji would help me in my other arts I decided to learn it. It wasn't cheep,no! on the contrary it was very costly as I took all private lessons. Anyways the master (yang style) sat me down and taught me like a collage guy. you know books and such. I didn't like it,I wanted hands on,I wanted to fight now.
especially at that time,I was really into MMA. I totally thought I was waisting my money on useless philosophies.
So my sifu told me a story that is in some book somewhere,I forget where.

This guy hears of this great master and goes to see him and tests him. The guy learns that he is great from the test. So the guy asks the master to teach him. So the master sits him down and starts to teach him philosophies. The kid was made to study those philosophies which made no sense to him at all for 3 hours a day while the master was away. When the master came back (half day)they trained.
years went by and then more years and more. The student reached a good mid level of skill and couldn't go no more. He accused the master of having secrets because he tried as hard as he could and could not make it to the top levels. Finally the master got upset at his accusations and said. you remember when you came to me? Student said yes I do. Master said do you remember me sitting you down in that schoolroom? Student said Yes I remember. So the master said, when I was away you never did the work did you!!!
There's your secrets.

 

Actually, I’m surrounded by calm and love – and respect. When people can’t fully address points put to them, they often resort to ad hominem comments. Saying that someone is full of hate, when really, they just hate things that are hateful, is a nasty twist. I ‘hate’ the twisting of information. Like, I actually really, really respect Chen Xiao Wang, but I’d never lie for him – I’d never pretend that a compliant demo was real – because that diminishes us all, as a human culture. And I ‘hate’ that trajectory. But I don’t hate you, or even those who slander me or send me hate mail.

I know better than most the reason you want and need to make the argument personal – because you couldn’t win it solely on fact. And that’s a fact.

Well gee, do you reckon? Tell you what, why notmake an effort to stop us being more educated on how information is twisted, and how people lie to make black seem white... cos, you know, we really need that.

 

What is it that makes you think it was 100% co-operative?

Well, the thread is about what is shown in the original clip. Which, incidentally, has nothing to do with fighting. YOU projected that.

You are free to percieve my comments, or anyone elses for that matter, any way you like. I would hardly see MartialArtsPlanet as the crown springboard to boast upon. I have nothing to lose. Also, I spoke nothing of "secrets"...

This has been addressed on other forums and blogs. I needn't bother repeat here.

Actually, neither looks good or bad from that clip. Not much of anything occured. It wasn't a fight. But Liao Bai was being a bit cheap when he threw that last "push" after the "whistle" was blown, so to speak.

You're right, we'll never know what might have happened had it been a "real fight". None-the-less, I would still have bet on CXW. I would bet on him, how is that making a claim for him? Answer: it isn't.

As for "showing", you like to talk up your "badness" of approach towards MA, yet you've ripped your YT vids down. Bad results? What the hell would a vid of me have to do with CXW anyways?

There's your problem FQ- your imagination. It has run away with you. Why do you think it is wasterners can take all kinds of gold medals in the Olympics, yet cannot match the Chinese when it comes to skills specific to Taiji?

The only person that assumes "secrets" here, is you.

 

Hard work and wise thought expended on incorrect or incomplete training regimen will miss the mark.