Charlie Hebdo: Gun attack on French magazine kills 12

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by slipthejab, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I wonder what percentage of all this occurs because it's europe and much of this is the residual effects of having been colonial powers come home to roost? Where I grew up we had ''little brown people'' too but no one would have thought of them as muslims first (maybe philipinos or perhaps Sikhs or...). There is a huge political thing going on here that is only partly determined by religious affiliations.

    People of every generation , coming from a foreign country, get short shrift. It happened to some of my friends parents as well as my mother. When you are different it gets noticed. After people get to know you it tends to get forgotten (who cares what colour or language you speak when you are on the rugby pitch eh!!). The odd thing is the ghettoisation (sp?) that occurs in europe and how marginalised those on the wrong end of the stick must feel.

    Funny thing about all this is that somewhere along the line people forget that Islam (similarily to Judaism) is a religion and not a race. I don't know how you can be racist about the religon really when there are chinese muslims (and jews), black muslims (and jews) as well as ''white'' muslims (and jews). Come to think of it, the same applies to christianity as well.

    No, in many ways it is a clash of cultures where the two aren't able to blend as much or more so than the religions themselves. I bet that anywhere where people are poor, alienated and left to suffer by a larger group you will see similar problems. An article I was reading -

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

    discusses how so may of the terrorists in this world are related to regional disputes (eg the Basques in Spain) or related to other religions (other than Islam) with their own intolerant actions. Funny the thing that seems to fuel so much of this controversy is the media (and the governments as well of course) focus on religion to perhaps a really disproportionate degree. Yes in France the end thing was the insult to the prophet (to insult the prophet is to kill him) but there is (as some have mentioned) so much more going on and the religious things just provided a spark.

    So where am I going with all this? Well realy I am just thinking that so much more of this is related to Europe's history than strictly to the differences between Muslims and ''whites'' (both nonsense terms as descriptors since neither is an identifiable and homogeneous group).

    Just some observations!

    I am sure I will have put my foot in it or said something in an obtuse fashion so apologies in advance eh!

    LFD
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I think you make a lot of good points, Late for Dinner.

    Issues of 'race' are never simple 'black and white' ones. It's only the racists who try to make them that way!

    Historically, religion has often been used in exactly the same way that 'race' often is/has been used, as a means to divide and conquer. It has also been used as a means to unite the conquered against their oppressors. In that way, it can be a political tool in just the same way as anything else which can be used to define a 'group' - either our 'own' group, or a group that is 'other' to our own.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing I've just thought about is that, at one time, Islam would have fallen into the same sort of category as cartoons about Mohammed today.
    When it was created it would have bumped up against other religions and ideas in the same market place and I'm pretty sure people with those other ideas would have taken offense at this new religion. Being told their old religion was incorrect, false gods, false prophets, etc.
    So either it's OK for ideas to be expressed and they stand and fall on their merits (so cartoons are OK) or it's not (in which case neither cartoons or islam are OK and EVERYONE has to be quiet).
     
  4. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    The problem is that religions have their own internal rules, which apply to their own adherents but not to everyone else.

    So for Muslims, a picture or model of one of their prophets is blashemous. That is their rule. For everyone else, it isn't the rule. So you've got a potential disagreement there.

    One example would be manger scenes, which are a very traditional Christian thing at Christmas time. Now for a Muslim, those are technically blasphemous, but while they privately don't link them, they don't go around making a fuss because it's obvious that there is no intent on the parts of Christians to blaspheme. Quite the opposite in fact.

    The obvious difference with cartoons like the Charlie Hebdo ones is that they are intended to mock Islam, and intended to be provocative to Muslims.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Islam says "you can't do x because our religion bans it" and everyone goes out of their minds for freedom.....yet the US is STILL having states refuse to acknwoledge gay marriage
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    We had violence in Europe for over a century over how to interpret Christianity (and divvy up the money). Idolatry was part of that. It included a war that lasted for 30 years and wiped out a third of the people in Germany. I think memories are short.

    Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism#After_the_creation_of_Israel

    Also:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9EUe8jNr6o"]Don't Get Me Started - Stewart Lee - What's So Wrong About Blasphemy? - YouTube[/ame]

    For an example of Christians using death threats to censor art.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    In Glasgow, they're one and the same!

    One of the few things Frankie Boyle has said that I found funny:

    "I mean, the naiveté of Al-Qaeda trying to bring religious war to Glasgow. We're four hundred years ahead of you guys. You've not even got a football team."
     
  8. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    So if some cartoons were made about this, gays will go around shooting people with what? :eek:

    http://www.gayswithguns.net/
     
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    what point are you trying to make here martialman?
     
  10. CanuckMA

    CanuckMA Valued Member

    And by and large Xtianity has moved well beyond that.

    Individuals, denounced by the Jewish world outside their small groups. Also brought to justice and sentenced.
     
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But we are all capable of behaving in the same way, given the same environment.

    I think you only serve to increase alienation and reinforce cultural divides when you start blaming the ideology over the individuals. It shouldn't even need to be said that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly peaceful people, and you get violent whackos of all denominations and creeds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I believe the violence we are seeing in the middle east and other muslim regions is more a reflection on the level of social development in those countries than any religion. Many of the people fighting for ISIS aren't even capable of reading the Quran, never mind coming to their own opinions on what the words mean.

    When your only connection to your religious beliefs are men whose agenda is a pursuit of power, then why would we expect anything different from what we are seeing.

    Instead of bombing these countries, we should be trying to ramp up development and improve the often primitive education systems. That's what pulled Christianity out of the dark ages - it became really hard to convince people that the bible says to wage war in Jesus' name when those people were capable of reading the bible for themselves. You'll still have the zealots, but they are the minority - the majority of the fundamentalists are just doing what they are being told by the radical clerics.
     

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