I personally am proud of my country's WTF TKD and I think it is a good form of fighting and SD despite the flaws and 'holes'. But quite honestly I am getting fed with the WTF's refusal to adapt and change its training methods to go with the times. It's good that TKD is full contact but two big things are things I still consider to be flaws. 1. The hogu is still used... Kyokushin Karatekas go at it bareknuckled. Why shouldn't we? 2. So far, severe lack of punching. The WTF reforms will hopefully change this. But these two things need to be addressed. While Kyokushin fighters are conditioning their bodies to take hits, we are still worried about getting points on the hogu. Why can't the WTF change their methods? Do you think that they ever will? When will the WTF change their methods? Will they create a separate Professional TKD league with bareknuckle full contact, and if so, when? I'd like to hear your opinions. I had to post this after watching a HL reel of Kyokushin Karate and comparing to the HL reel of modern WTF Taekwondo.
I'm glad you're proud of your country's TKD, you should be! First off though, it's not the WTF (as far as I know, it's certainly not in the UK) that tells people how to train, and what training methods to use. Obviously though there are a lot of clubs that do gear most of their training to competition fighting. 1. Yes, we do still use the hogu, personally I still would like to see it go. I think it restricts the movement a lot and so reduces fighters ability to perform. That being said, before I started doing TKD, one of my first instructors friends took a sidekick in the ribs at a competition and died from internal injuries. So I guess it's got its pros and cons. But I think the main reason why it's not going anywhere ties into the answer to your second question... 2. I hope the rules are changed to encourage more punching too. One of the things that I think will encourage this is the new electronic hogu. With this hopefully punches will score more often. However investing in this new way of being able to score strikes means that the hogu will be around for some time to come. I think they will, and I think they're taking the first steps, however it won't be an over night thing. I think one thing they have to keep is TKDs identity. If you take away the hogu, what's so different between a WTF match and a Kyokushin Karate match? I think your idea of a separate league is more likely to happen than the WTF changing all the existing rules. I wouldn't be surprised if the Olympic rules and protection stayed roughly as they are now, and you started to see new leagues started up to run along side it. I thought this was kind of happening already in a small way...
But the thing is as the training methods are now, although I keep reiterating that WTF TKD is an effective style, a TKD artist himself must take that extra step to prepare for K-1 or MMA, because he cannot get that level of "hardcoreness" and contact in the TKD dojang. This bothers me the most. MT and Kickboxers are ready to fight in the ring because they train like it daily. But a TKD-in must pay even more money and more time to get ready for the ring. Besides, everyone should be able to receive the benefits of hardcore training. TKD might be a martial art for everyone, but I'm sick and tired of cowardly practitioners who half-ass the art, such as those kids who take it just because mommy and daddy said so. Oh and that video was quite impressive. I liked it. That's how Taekwondo matches should be. You're right about the hogu though. They invested too much time and money into developing the new electronic hogu for them to scrap it so soon. A separate league probably will emerge. The question is how big this separate league will get, however. This KOK or whatever new professional TKD-style league must gain popularity and prominence for it to have a drastic effect on the way the TKD community trains and would bring more recognition from other martial artists. I still don't why some of those things in that video couldn't be in an amateur-style Olympic match with a hogu... In that KOK video, the fighters used an effective guard as well as a more square stance, and more punching. Why can't that be implemented in regular WTF sparring? It should... p.s... If people here will cooperate, we should send in a petition and letters to the WTF calling for an effective guard as well as a more square stance, and more punching in regular WTF competition. Is anyoen in? Are you Liam? Another thing that is needed is quality control. The percentage of TKD dojangs (not just WTF) that are McDojangs is ridiculous, to the point that it is absolutely sickening. The Kukkiwon said they would have a more unified and structured cirriculum and better quality control starting this year.... Hopefully it works.
I don't delve into the politics of TKD much so forgive me if my questions seem ignorant . I'm having a hard time understanding your position. I can understand why you as a person would want to forego hoguls but to change the rules so that they are not required would greatly reduce the amount of people who could actually derive enjoyment from participating in TKD. Wouldn't the likelihood of serious injury dramatically increase? Wouldn't this increase in injury reduce participation due to recovery time? Wouldn't the injuries themselves cause one to be more prone to re-injury? It just doesn't make sense to me to limit TKD to only those who's shins are calloused and ribs are iron. It would also eliminate most of the women and children (ahem...I'm 5'3" and 109lbs, it wouldn't take much to crack my ribs or damage my internal organs!). I didn't join TKD to hurt people or to be hurt by others. Although it happens sometimes it shouldn't be the primary drive (or a drive at all). Maybe you can clear it up for me. I completely understand that hoguls are uncomfortable and limit movement but my personal opinion is that the risks of going without greatly outweigh the benefits. I only have one body and I'd like to keep it in one piece . Kelly P.S. Why WTF TKD, why not participate in some other MA that does not require protective gear? I really want to know...I'm not just being annoying (at least not on purpose ).
Hogu's aren't protective gear they are a part of the scoring system. Some practice Hogu's are thicker and provide some protection. Competition hogus are thinner, yes they absorb some of the shock but not as much as the majority of people think. Their soul pourpose though is scoring.
I am not a TKDist, so I realize that my opinion means very little on the subject. However, the main thing I would like to see is the addition of leg kicks. I think that leg kicks are the most basic/easiest range of kicking, and eliminating them is taking away a big part of the 'kicking arsenal'. To me, things like Savate and Kyokushinkai have a big advantage over TKD in terms of their kicking techniques, by virtue of the use of leg kicks. Man, I apologize for how ineloquent that all was. I'm incoherent tonight.
Injury risk would increase. But it's all for making the general TKD population better fighters. I don't agree with the whole "TKD is for everyone" BS. Who cares if its for everyone if its falling behind some other styles in terms of training methods? TKD is a martial art and a fighting sport. As such, it has an obligation to remain strong. Sorry but this is just my opinion. My opinion is if one wants something easy going and not painful, one should take up Tae Bo or Cardio Kickboxing, not martial arts. People who are afraid of injury and don't want to get hurt, hurt the overall fighting skill of the TKD population. I really don't give a damn if a lot of people leave TKD. I really don't. That's their deal. I just don't want to sit by and watch while Kyokushin guys are duking it out full blast but the TKDers need their hogus. Train in another martial art, you say? So are you suggesting that TKD is a McArt, designed for people who really actually don't want to train martial arts? Sparring is about getting hurt. Too bad if you don't like it. I tend to be very blunt and honest with my feelings. Sorry if I have offennded you.
What big advantage? I've seen Kyokushin Karatekas lose to Taekwondoins and vice versa. But yes.. I do agree leg kicks would be a wonderful addition.
Plenty of MA out there do not use hogu and are fine. Actually hogu is something only TKD really uses on a consistent basis. No one else seems to have a real big problem without it. Doesn't also make sense to keep rules that allow for sloppy conditioning and give handicaps that could potentially mislead practitioners into thinking they have the skills to defend themselves. Like I said before, there are many systems that don't use a hogu, that do have women and children, and don't have problems. It is not about establishing the purpose of hurting people. Removing the hogu and allowing punches will force people to improve their defensive game and conditioning, and allow for a little more dynamic in competition. If WTF TKD is going to remain a full contact continuous sparring sport, then subsequent to making rule changes for allowing punches and removing hogu, they should probably have some sort of intermediate tournament circuit to prepare for the rigor of full contact. In fact, it would probably be good to keep the Olympic sparring they have now, and then just add divisions for more advanced sparring like with kicks to legs, punches to head, minimal gear. Even maybe keep the Olympic style sparring for the gups and do the full contact for the dans. If WTF didn't have so many people in it, I'd say screw the intermediate tournament stuff and change everything at once, but changes to make WTF TKD more loose and MMA-like will probably have to come step by step and with adequate opportunity for adjustment due to the sheer size of the organization. Kelly P.S. Why WTF TKD, why not participate in some other MA that does not require protective gear? I really want to know...I'm not just being annoying (at least not on purpose ).[/QUOTE]
Perhaps rules should be changed for competion, I watched a Maui Thai match and some were full MT rules allowing elbows and knees, not that they used it . It could be introduced where a cetain amount of kicks and punches are allowed in matches. People could enter as semi or full rules, its an idea. I agree though, most half a$$ed teachers should be named and shamed as you see on most programmes about cowboy builders and plumbers. I wonder whether anyone would go into a McDojang and secretly film it...how you would hide a camera in your uniform is going to be a difficult one. Tans
TKDmmafiter, I'm not offended at all by your post, LOL, I've read enough of them to know what I was getting into when I replied . How does injury make one a better fighter? Like you, I don't want to join tae bo or cardiokickboxing, I want to be in TKD. Yet you would be willing to eliminate that option. Do I not have the right to learn to defend myself? Only those who are "strong enough" are allowed to learn to defend themselves? Doesn't that go against common sense? I'm also not afraid of getting hurt, I'm concerned about causing permanent damage to my body. It's not the pain that's an issue it's living with a chronic injury that hinders my ability to function normally and care for my family...it's not worth that in my opinion. You're forgetting that sports are made up of people; without the people the sport will fold. The art may continue but good luck in finding a practicing school nearby. I don't fully understand the "Mc-Dojang" or "Mc-art" concept so using those terms with me goes nowhere, sorry . Like I said I know very little about TKD politics (and I like it that way...I'm actually a happy person ). And I'm not saying anything, other than if you don't like it, leave. Currently this IS WTF TKD...you're the one complaining...not me. People are allowed to do with their businesses what they want. If you don't like it launch out on your own, change the rules, and do what you want. No one is holding you back but you. You obviously feel strongly about this and I really don't but I do have an opinion and I've shared it. You haven't offended me (you'd be hard-pressed to do so) in the least. I hope it works out for you in your part of the world but as for me I'm happy in mine . Estranged13, How so? Mine is thickly padded. If they were simply for scoring wouldn't a tie on cloth vest be sufficient? I used to use a child's hogul (my instructor purchased it in Korea); it was extremely thin (although it had some slight padding) and I had the wind knocked out of me almost every time (I spar mostly people who are bigger and further advanced than I am). My current hogul is very protective. EternalRage, Maybe I'm missing the point. Is it lighter contact without the equipment in these other MAs? It defies reason to assume that there would be less or comparable trauma and injury in those who don't use hoguls. I completely agree with this statement. How does the hogul allow for sloppy conditioning though? How does it handicap? In a sparring match we're equally "handicapped" how would using a hogul in these situations not allow us skills to defend ourselves in a real life situation? I'm being trained in self-defense, I'm stronger than I was before, I have more endurance and confidence. I'm far more equipped than I was 9 months ago. And realisticly do you believe a 7th, 8th, 9th gup can defend themselves anyway (I believe we can to a certain extent but you know what I mean)? We don't start out there, it's where we end up. If a person has reached the level of a BB and can't defend themselves adequately because they've always worn a hogul and weren't allowed to punch to the face or kick to the legs in COMPETITIONS they need to find another excuse! I guess the biggest thing I don't understand is if ya'll don't like the rules of WTF why don't you switch to a different organization? Maybe that's my ignorance shining through but if someone could explain it to me I'd appreciate it (I'm asking sincerely). Also, competitions are such a small part of our practice. Why not learn and practice in the dojang without hoguls and with punches to the face and kicks to the legs? Is there a reason this can't be done? We learn a variety of techniques that cannot be used in competition (and most people never attend competitions anyway). It just doesn't seem to me that anyone is holding anyone else back from learning anything. I also don't see why the desire to compete full contact without equipment can't be fulfilled outside of the WTF TKD ring. Kelly
Taekwondo = Karate adapted for use by Koreans Kyokushin = Karate adapted for use...by a Korean... They'd be scored better with no hogu, and would actually serve a functional purpose.
then you should go and train something where a hogu is not used. no need to complain about taekwondo because you will not change anything so we might stop wasting our time.
Um...excuse me? I really don't think that's your call. As a Taekwondo practitioner and instructor I have a valid reason to complain. I want to see our sport improve and adapt, rather than stagnate. Hogus were not always used, and are, truthfully, a Japanese import. I have pictures of old school Moodukkwan sparring with boxing gloves, headgear, and no hogu. Face it. Our sport is the laughing stock of the martial arts world, and has been in trouble over the last five years. Changes are coming, slowly but surely. To say that the hogu will never go away, is, IMO, arrogant, and without reason. Stop waisting our time? If it is "our" time, and I am included in the "us", then I'm not waisting anything. I am a Taekwondo practitioner, I have an opinion, and I have reasons for them. Or perhaps you meant for me to stop waisting your time. I'm sorry if my views are different from yours. God forbid we actually discuss them.
Madmonk, I know your post wasn't directed to me but it brought up a question: I'm just wondering how you feel not using hoguls would improve the sport. Also what are you wanting our sport to "adapt" to and you want it to improve according to whose standards? In what ways do you feel TKD is stagnating? LOL, I know I keep saying it but I REALLY WANT TO KNOW...I have no underlying reason for asking other than trying to understand the perspectives here . Kelly
It's people like you with such <removed> views about keeping WTF TKD unique and what not that stagnate the development of TKD. I agree with MadMonk. MadMonk and I are both TKD artists and we are both proud of what we do but we both recognize the need for change. I've already stated I like doing WTF TKD and that I think it is an awesome martial art. But it is quickly falling behind in terms of conditioning and training methods to other arts. If you don't like getting hit, go train Tae Bo.
I realize you'd like to hear the opinions of members here... which in fact have been posted and commented about.... but if you are serious in your quest why do you not pose these questions to the federation. Personally I'd rather train at a TKD school where you are free to train however you choose.
