strange, it was my understanding that ohtsuka DID have a falling out with funakoshi because ohtsuka placed a certain emphasis on sparring and fight training as a result of his jujutsu that funakoshi did not like
According to the "Official" Biography by his son Jiro, Ohtsuka left with permission of Funakoshi following mounting tensions with Funakoshis son and finances within the group. It seems as though there may have been bad feelings between Giei Funakshi and Otsuka, there is nothing to suggest this extended to the two men themselves. Gary
1. According to the Nihon Budo Taikei,The Japanese Encyclopeadia of Budo, Otsuka was present at an encounter between Motobu and Funakoshi in 1929. Otsuka was forced to come to the rescue of Funakoshi... ''As a Martial Artist very few could match him in terms of dedication and wealth of experience. His ability was in no doubt. A story from the early years of karate training in Japan illustrates not only the skill attributed to Ohtsuka Sensei as a result of his rich Martial Arts background, but also the relationship between the various Okinawan experts. This tale is recounted in "Nihon Budo Taikei" and tells of a meeting at Yasuhiro Konishi's dojo in 1929, between Choki Motobu and Gichin Funakoshi. Also present, Hironori Ohtsuka and a Judo fourth Dan who was accompanying Motobu. It was obvious that Motobu was intent on making mischief. Motobu arranged a challenge in which the Judoka took a grip on Funakoshi's collar and sleeve. Motobu then said, "Now you are so proud of your basic kata, show me what value they have in this situation. Do what you wish to escape." It is obvious that the odds were greatly against Funakoshi, the much younger Judoka having established a firm grip. He gamely tried to disengage with Soto-uke and Uchi-uke with no success and he was lifted up and thrown against the wall of the dojo. Ohtsuka Sensei was then asked to try his luck. He rose to the challenge and because of his Jujutsu background had no difficulty in dealing with the situation.'' http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/ohtsuka.html 2. ''Apparently Choki Motobu never rated Funakoshi very highly as a karateka; according to Motobu, Funakoshi had only been a minor figure on the Okinawan karate scene. But the real bad feeling began in Japan, when three of Funakoshi's senior students (Ohtsuka, Konishi, and another whose name we didn't get) had grown disappointed with his teaching and began studying with Choki Motobu, whose karate they found much more logical and effective. Then there was an occasion in the dojo when Motobu and Funakoshi were comparing technique and Motobu asked Funakoshi what he would do in a certain position. Funakoshi was not able to respond immediately; he had to think of his counter and then when he moved Motobu threw him down -- right in front of Funakoshi's own students. This was a terrible loss of face for Gichin Funakoshi and from that moment he regarded Motobu as a treacherous rival'' http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-motobu2.html Well two good reasons for leave Funakoshi, nothing more to take/learn from him...
Hi Hohn, Re - the link, you posted - I know / know of the two Wado contributors in question and they certainly know their stuff. Bob Nash is a JKF Wado-kai 7th Dan. Reg Kear is a WIKF 6th Dan and probably one of the most knowledgeable Wado-ka there is. In fact they are both contributors to Wado World which is one of most accurate sources of Wado on the net. Wado World cites the "Official" Otsuka biography as the source of the date for him parting company with Funakoshi -ie 1926. But they also explain that it does appear that not everyone agrees with this date. Even Ohgami (who as explained is probably one of the most thorough ma historians suggests that it was as late as 1935). Interesting perhaps that the 1926 seems to coincide with when Otsuka first met Motobu? Maybe he did not physically leave Funkoshi at this stage, but perhaps he had stopped learning from him. I guess the truth is out there somewhere. Gary
Interesting Hey guys, this is actually pretty interesting stuff actually! Anything about Chojun Miyagi, Kenwa Mabuni, Matsumura Sokon, or Kanbun Uechi (at least in relation to Funakoshi and/or Otsuka)? This is really great stuff. And feel free to post some more videos that you think are most descriptive of your styles or that define the differences clearly (those Ueichi ones were pretty descriptive).
well, a lot of the early masters used to get together and train with each other for some time, until they got too busy with their own schools and styles. one such group is described here http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=2203 mabuni used to train with itosu (dunno if at the same time as funakoshi) and was also acquainted with miyagi, who invited him to train with higashionna too. he remained a friend of funakoshi, and they still got together to train occasionally after both went to japan. in fact he taught funakoshi some kata, although i have no idea which those were, and how many of those he incorporated into the shotokan he taught (it's widely known that funakoshi knew naha-te kata such as seienchin, and hangetsu is said to come from seisan, so i'd assume that mabuni taught him those)
Both weight lifting and running will help you to get in shape and there is no question about that. Instead of weight lifting, the "equipment training" may be better. The difference is the "equipment training" can help you to develop a certain skill that you don’t have when you were born. For example, if you dig a hole and put a Bowling ball in that hole. You use your foot to scoop that Bowling ball out of the hole daily. It may not help you to develop any noticeable muscle, but it will help you to develop your leg "scooping" ability. Many special types of equipment are designed for developing special types of MA skills (using bicycle tube to develop Judo throws will be another example). Running is good for your heart. If you replace it by "low stance walking" that your upper legs are always parallel to the ground, you will find it out that it's much harder than running and you can see your leg muscle being built up quickly. Since most of the MA styles will require you to bend your legs into either bow-arrow stance or horse stance, the "low stance walking" can make your legs to be strong in any low combat stances.
Hangetsu definitely comes from Seisan, no doubt about that. Seisan is, I think, unique in being the only kata that was taught in both the Shuri-te and Naha-te traditions. There are different versions of course. The Naha-te versions certainly have a Goju/Uechi look about them, and the Shuri-te versions don't. But it is clear there is a common root. Hangetsu has been discussed here before, but here's my view anyway. The sequence looks like its much closer to the Shuri-te versions, but the manner of performance looks like an attempt to capture something of the dynamic tension of Naha-te. So Funakoshi may well have already known Seisan before training with Mabuni. That would be my guess, but it is of course merely conjecture. Mike
Just to get back to the original premise, i originally trained in Goju but now train in Wado. I would say that the main differences i noticed are: in Goju most emphasis on high, toes inward, pelvis upward stance (Sanchin?), control and application of breathing techniques combined with muscle tension, circular arm motions for double blocks and strikes, more emhasis on body conditioning and use of Makiwara. In Wado, more emphasis (but not exclusively) on lower wide legged stances (Shikodatchi, Kibadachi, Mahanmi no Nekoashi), breathing used only as part of Kiai and emphasising techniques, particularly strikes, little body tensioning and more use of softness and avoidance techniques (such as Nagashi), more emhasis on 'sport' type striking work, little use of conditioning equipment. You need to be careful though because some of these differences are likely to be particular to the clubs and Sensei i trained with, and the emphasis will be different from club to club. I have noticed this when training with Sensei, same style, different club. What i would say though is that there seems to be more emhasis on power in Shotokan? I can certainly see this in Kata .
This bit caught my eye and maybe the wado people can help me out - Surely breathing is emphasised for every technique, not just on kiai? Speaking from a Shoto point, I know we'd all keel over if we didn't breathe properly on every technique!
Ive always found it helps to breathe. I think it would be fair to say however that in Wado - emphasis is based on natural breathing. I am not aware of any specific breathing exercises/kata in Wado - to the same extent as say Goju. Gary
I always thought that goju/kyokushin kata were way more intimidating than their shotokan/wado/sh1to cousins. I mean, if some dude attacked me by thrusting his crotch at me while making quacking noises, I'd be out of there in a flash, no fisticuffs needed.
So... So Shotokan uses wide and low stances and linear attack and defence, mostly hard techniques, with some grappling in the dan Wado-ryu uses natural stances, with more grappling ****o-ryu natural with both striking and grappling Shorin-ryu uses natural stances and linear attack and circular defence Goju-ryu and Ueichi-ryu use natural stances with a balance of striking and grappling Okay... The Okainawan styles also seem to place a greater emphasis on building physical strength and have special breathing techniques as well... Well, as long as they all work. The Okinawan ones definately do, but I hope Shotokan can still dish out the power (I'm now really wondering about that because of what I've heard of Funakoshi not being able to beat that Judoka while Otsuka could (using some of that Jujutsu background of his) because an Okinawan Karateka would have been able to kill the Judoka with a square hit I guess). Any thoughts?
The story involving Funakoshi can be read in a number of ways. One obvious way is that Funakoshi personally could not fight his way out of a paper bag. However, Funakoshi was tremendously anti-violence and against hitting people unless they had protective clothing (he did speculate that if good enough protective clothing could be developed then fighting could be used in Dan gradings). In all of his books he stresses his unwillingness to fight, the consequences for other people when Azato or Itosu had fought them, how Matsumura curled up in a ball to avoid fighting, and how he himself had handed over property to avoid fighting. The one fight he does detail is where he felt he could not escape and he wrenched the younger man's bollocks. The fact that Funakoshi attempted some strikes to the arm rather than kick or hit more vital areas, shows his unwillingness to do harm. The idea that Otsuka handled the guy because of his Ju Jitsu training is a load of utter rubbish - because that implies that Funakoshi had no grappling training whereas Funakoshi was an accomplished tegumi practitioner. I would say that the truth of the matter is that Otsuka as a younger (and bigger) man had no qualms about using force - Funakoshi did. And this was the point of the exercise. Motobu wanted to provoke Funaksohi into using force, or embarrass him by making him seem helpless. Funakoshi on the other hand held fast by his principle of not using force except in a real attack.
Also, at the point the story allegedly happened, Funakoshi would have been in his sixties. There aren't so many guys in their seventh decade who would throw around burly young judoka. Remeber, the shotokan karate you train in today has been filtered through decades of other teachers since Mr Funakoshi. For each "elderly Mr Funakoshi got thrown by a young judoka", there are several "Mikio Yahara beat up a car load of yakuza then went inside to win the JKA championships". Don't get hung up on anecdotes - I'm happy with my training even if, 100 years ago, an elderly man lost a wrestling match which his rival had fixed by bringing in a ringer.
Well..... The great master who didn’t want harm the poor judoka..... Ok let’s leave the fairy tale out and stick to the truth!Funakoshi wasn’t good fighter. He was the right man for the job to introduce karate in Japan because he was educate man and good diplomat but that’s all... He lost the fight not because..he didn’t want to heart his opponent with his deadly punches and his lethal kicks but because he couldn’t do anything to defend himself, sorry but that’s the truth! On the other hand Ohtsuka was a great fighter and he was him and Konishi that take care all the challenges of other schools against Funakoshi’s ''school''. He manage to win easily and rescue the fame of the school (didn’t call Shotokan back then) using his jujitsu backround and his fighting experience and that’s a fact... Maybe then he realizes that Funakoshi couldn’t teach him anything and start training with Motobu and Mabuni....
Do you think that writing "that's the truth" adds weight to your guess about what happened? You weren't there any more than I was, so whether it's "the truth" or not is lost to history.
