Causes of death.....

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Dead_pool, May 14, 2019.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    False dichotomy there! Just because I object to an off-topic straw man (with a side of ad hominem), doesn't mean I'm in favor of echo chambers or opposed to debate.

    Your original post was all about statistical relative risk and the choices we make in our personal lives because of that. I have no issue with the back and forth about that (whether my assertions about statistical relative risk of drinking and gun ownership were accurate).

    The post I objected to was different. And it had nothing to do with that. It boiled down to "I know your type, you Americans are all the same, you like your current gun laws and you don't care about kids lives." That's not productive debate. That's an off topic, inaccurate personal attack. I was disappointed to see the post and I was disappointed to see the thread author "like" the post.

    For the record, I support nationwide gun owner licensing in the model of shall-issue CHL laws; I support banning magazines with capacities over ten rounds; I support universal background checks and supported that law when we passed it in Oregon; I support red flag laws and supported them when we passed them in Oregon. I don't support Aus/NZ/UK style gun laws but I don't support the NRA extreme either. Of course, none of that has anything to do with THIS THREAD, but there it is.
     
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  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Brilliant, thanks for saying so, I'm a fan of debate, and an open exchange of ideas,
    Yes it was off topic, but it was based on his recollection of past discussions, and it wasn't completely wrong.

    To be fair your country is a statistical outlier, you can see why people wonder why you guys don't want to change.
     
  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Actually the characterization of my policy viewpoint WAS completely wrong, unless you take a "everyone who doesn't support prohibition are all the same as each other because they're not like me" worldview.

    I don't understand why the majority of British people support Brexit, but I don't attack individual British people about what "you guys want." Especially when talking to one of the many British people on the other side of that vote.

    And for the record, there are plenty of changes. Most gun laws are handled at the state level, because most crime is handled at the state level and most licensing is handled at the state level. So when you suggest nothing has changed because federal law hasn't changed, you're misunderstanding how gun laws work in the USA. Here in Oregon, a ton has changed over the past decade and we're continuing to debate further changes.
     
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  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's great to hear!

    What changes have occurred? And have the changes made a difference to your crime or death rates?

    Interestingly most british people are not in favour of brexit, at the time. At the time. Of the vote, turnout was 72% and 52% of that were in favour (so 37% in favour), and a large percentage have changed their mind now they know what's involved.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

  6. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    As I already said, Oregon enacted universal background checks in 2015 and red flag laws in 2017.

    Background Checks in Oregon | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

    Oregon's Red Flag Law - Oregon Department of Justice

    Have they made a difference? Even before these laws passed, Oregon's per capita homicide rate was roughly equivalent to Belgium's and 1/25th the homicide rate of Baltimore...so it's hard to document a specific change. And even as for spree shootings specifically, I'm only aware of one major one in Oregon (Umpqua Community College in 2015); so while we've had one such tragedy here, we haven't had another since these laws were put in place, and it's hard to make a definitive causal statement either way, especially in just a five year window.
     
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  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    So in response to my point that Oregon has a homicide rate comparable to Belgium and haven't had a major spree shooting since 2015 (or a major spree shooting before 2015), you counter with two examples, one of which involved zero injuries, and one of which involved an adult who tried to kill a police officer during a custody dispute and was then killed by said officer. Besides trying to be contrary, I don't understand what point you're trying to make.
     
  9. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    This was done for the sake of consistency with other EU countries and not because of any practical problem with the status quo. At 0.5 per 100,000, Switzerland already had one of the lowest homicide rates in the world.

    If this thread is about statistical risk and not legislative policy, Swiss gun owners are not a meaningful statistical risk.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    And yet they don't have a wierd emotional reaction when people mention gun control, Iirc it was only in the 60's/70's that an NRA backed campaign changed the reading of the 2nd amendment to its current form?

    Is that correct?

    Edit I belive I may of got that from this:

     
  11. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    About Switzerland, your article says:

    "Gun rights proponents complained the rules could disarm law-abiding citizens and encroach on Switzerland’s heritage and national identity, which includes a well-armed citizenry."

    So yes, there was opposition to the law from Swiss gun rights groups.

    But onto the next topic...you're now asking about NRA legislative policy stances in the 1970s? The topic-switching is leaving me dizzy. Is this the "statistical relative risks in daily life" thread or the "what I hate about American gun owners" thread? Because if it's now the latter, I'm jettisoning.
     
  12. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    smh. Can we go back to suicide, drinking, and dope addicts? :) The gun talk just depresses me and it always devolves into chaos. I don't see a solution to that problem compared to the former issues....heart disease, suicide, drugs have solutions at the end of the rainbow...guns, forget it. That genie can't be put back in the bottle.
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing I think is relevant when comparing risks to other risks is human nature.
    We are pleasure seeking animals.
    As such it's a lot harder to restrict or ban things that people use for pleasure. Like alcohol, drugs and sex. Even when those things are risky.
    There are obviously countries that seek to restrict some (or all!) those things (or tried in the past like prohibition) but in order to succeed there often needs to be a very strong cultural component (Like Islamic countries and alcohol). And even then there is often something that replaces what is prohibited (certain Islamic countries are having a real problem with amphetamines for example).
     
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  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I'm engaging you in a friendly debate, to try and understand the situation from your perspective.

    If you don't want to engage, that's fine.
     
  15. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    You ask me to explain the NRA's history of policy stances, when I've already explained at length and repeatedly that I support Czech-style licensing (like Cory Booker's gun control plan), not the NRA. That's not asking me to explain MY perspective, is it? That's asking me to be a windmill that you can tilt at.
     
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You don't support the NRAs stance, so I'm asking why? What about it do you disagree with?
    I'm asking you to explain your viewpoint, including the context of the NRA, because as non Americans we don't know the entire story.

    This is in good faith I promise you, but is a big ask. So if you havn't the time that's fine.
     
  17. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Because gun control is about fifteen different issues, and I would have to explain the NRA position, the Czech position, and where I fall for each issue and the reasons why, that would be a ten page paper. No. Giving you a country whose laws I support (Czech Republic) and an American politician whose positions I support (Booker) is enough.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Then don't get so upset when people misread your position....

    From the European viewpoint, Americans in general are gun fetishists who value their guns more them their children's lives.

    But maybe that's because we view it as a single country, instead of a loose collection of 50 separate countries/states, without a single common thread.
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    "Even though you have already explained your position at length, I will continue to assert that you support child murder unless you write a ten page essay on a topic of my choosing. I am being very courteous, now please write me that essay or I will continue to impugn your character."

    This is classic sea-lioning, not a meaningful debate. I've explained a ton already about my views in this thread, but you just keep moving the goalposts and demanding more.

    I'm out.

    Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate"
     
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  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

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