Caucasian in my country.

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Ero-Sennin, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    anyone joining up must expect that one day they might have to kill, or they may be killed.
    or in other words die for whatever cause the fight is about, or for their country or whatever.

    why do you feel the need to dispute that, it's just obvious. it's not seeking death, because not all soldiers die.
    But they should and probably do accept the possibility.
     
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    there's a difference; you used the word extremist. but what was said could just as well apply to a soldier, which the OP was.
    what you said was unfair, you should probably apologise for it.
     
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    lol, you'll enjoy it like making love to a hot woman.
     
  4. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    "Join the Army and see the next world!" is a FREAKING AMAZINGLY GREAT SLOGAN. That needs to be a shirt.
     
  5. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    People are going to feel what they feel, or think what they think. Best we can do is present our side of things and hope they can see it from our perspective.
     
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  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I think saying all soldiers want to die is unfair to the majority of the armed forces who don't have a death wish.

    Otherwise there is no difference between a suicide bomber and the armed forces.
     
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Suicide bombers often go out of their way to kill innocent people, civilians; often innocent women and children.
    Sometimes they target military.

    Regular armed forces target other armed forces as a rule. Sure they get it wrong and there can be mistakes and civilian casualties.
    Depending on what the situation might be.

    But there is a big difference there. You're basically saying they are no better than an average terrorist.
    Take a step back and evaluate what it is you are trying to defend and say.

    Needless to say I don't agree, there is a difference beyond what your post suggests.
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Cool, the apology comment really came about as I had been also reading the other thread.
    Couldn't help myself turning the screw a little, can be bad like that.

    We're all only human as they say.
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award


    Nope I'm saying regular armed forces don't have a death wish and so they are different to suicide bombers.

    Your saying the regular armed forces do have a death wish, and hence I drew the parallel to other people who also have a death wish and use force to achieve political ends.

    Could be worse, they could be homeopaths.....
    ;)
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Trying to work out how a homeopathic suicide bomb would work and it's doing my nut in....
     
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  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Seems kind of odd trying to ascribe some monolithic motivation for joining the military.

    Front line combat is a minority role anyway, and certainly experiencing a kill-or-be-killed situation is a motivation for some. Is that suicidal? Maybe.

    Bit of a glib distinction between terrorists and soldiers going on as well.

    If anyone can tell me why a soldier following orders to carry out a suicidal bayonet charge on conscripts is heroic, while a man who pretends to join an army so he can gun down as many cadets on the base as he can before he's gunned down himself is a dastardly villain, I'd like to hear it. Or why killing children with artillery strikes is unfortunate collateral damage, but doing the same while blowing yourself up in a truck at a military check point is cowardly murder.

    I get the distinction of deliberately targeting civilians, of which national armies have killed far more than terrorists, but not when targeting opposing forces.
     
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  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It's really simple, we're the good guys, the bad guys are anyone who arnt us...

    Anything done by a state is good, as long as it's a good state, not a bad state, or a state that not recognised as a state, those non-states are always bad, unless those non states are fighting a bad state or a worse none state.

    For a current example see the news "states have the right to self defense".

    Unrecognised states it seems do not have the right to self defense.

    So for an older example Isis are bad (obviously) and the people fighting Isis are good, until they destroy Isis, and then they might be bad again, depending on what turkey and Russia want.

    Simple......
     
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  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I have a strange relationship with the military.

    I'm fascinated by weapons, tales of heroism and daring-do, WW2, the SAS, D-Day stories, the SOE, Fairbairn and Sykes, Tanks, etc.
    I play WW2 war games, paint WW2 miniatures and make WW2 terrain.
    I have researched my grandfather's role in WW2. He was a Royal Navy bomb disposal diver (part of the "P" Parties) who was loaned to the French to show them how to make-safe Northern European ports like Dunkirk after D-Day. Literally diving in freezing water with almost zero visibility and diffusing bombs, mines and booby traps pretty much by touch alone. I cannot comprehend the nerves of steel needed to do such a job.
    I have massive respect for those that served and those that continue to serve (as I do for the Police, Ambulance crew, Fire brigade, etc etc).

    And yet...and yet...I cannot fathom why someone would join the military in the modern age. To be directed into action by the likes of Trump and Johnson? In wars more about political machinations and power games than suppressing something like Nazism? In an army that is poorly equipped, poorly run and chucks casualties out the other end with barely any support?

    Joining the military seems the ultimate nationalistic step and I'm just not that fussed about the concept of Britain (or the US or wherever) being worth killing other people over (who feel nationalistic in the same way).
    If I joined the military with good intentions and ended up crippled by an IED in a war based on the lie of horded weapons of mass destruction and suppressing Al Qaeda I'd be somewhat cheesed off.
     
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  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Oh and I know pretty much all wars in all of History have largely been about "political machinations and power games" but at least something like WW2 had elements of a "just" war about it.
     
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  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Historically people fight, and join armies because they either
    1).want to protect their family/area,
    2) they need the money to live, or
    3) they just want to kill people.

    The international rules based order, and rise of stable democracies have stopped 1) being so much of an issue.

    2) is the main driver now

    3) there's a lot less of these around, and stable ones even less so.

    Looking back World war 2 seems like a morally acceptable war because they Nazis are the ultimate bad guys, but especially at the start, people didn't know that, it was the defence of their country they joined up.

    It's the same reason serving in the American military gives access to further education and healthcare, it makes people join who have limited prospects otherwise.

    Because we haven't got those issues as badly in the UK, they are fast running out of recruits, hence the cutting of army numbers, and the focus on diversity, they need people, and they can't be as "selective" as they used to be.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    ^ I wrote that whilst "busy" at work, and it shows, sorry guys!

    My point was there's multiple reasons people join the military in the developed west, and they are now mostly economic.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Plus the fact most people didn't have much of a say about joining the military, information was more limited, propaganda more extreme, social pressure to join the fight was intense, etc. etc..

    And yet some of the worst atrocities committed against civilians were carried out by the allies during that time; carpet bombing, the Bengal famine, dropping of atomic bombs, mass rape of millions of women...
     
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  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You got data for that?
     
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  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If poorly thought out theories, and a tiny amount of family experience count yes, if not, then not really.

    1) the low rate of wars between democracies, so joining to protect your country should be less common. (international rules based order for the win).

    List of wars between democracies - Wikipedia

    2) Recruitment issues in the UK, if all the people were joining to kill, then this shortage wouldn't happen.
    Overweight, unfit or shy? The British army still wants you

    3) Some real data, theres links to several surveys here, it looks like it's actually a more nuanced situation, I'll havnt read them yet, but from the quotes, historically it looks like many (not all) people join for economic reasons, the other main reason is "patriotism" which could mean a few things (real patriotism, as a cover for economic reasons, or as a cover because they just like killing). It looks like most military recruitment comes from poorer areas, but the families of the people joining, don't tend to be the poorer families.

    , Studies tackle who joins the military and why, but their findings aren’t what many assume

    4) A single data point, a close family member joined because he needed a job, and the idea of traveling the world and getting a trade appealed to him. He ended up in Serbia, and after that deployment left, partially because he had sufficient money saved to start a business, and because after being deployed in a warzone, he wanted to get away from that experience.
     
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  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's definitely a factor; I've known people for who it was part of the motivation. The people I've known have had more than just the one reason for signing up though, so declaring economic opportunity the main motivation seems a bit simplistic without data to back it up.
     
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