Catch Wrestling is the most Toxic Environment online

Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by Pretty In Pink, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I have just spent real-world HOURS arguing with idiots and I feel like I'm dumber for arguing in the first place.

    I joined a CACC group on Facebook in the hopes I'd see some people learn and share techniques, learn some history, see some comps, some guys entering local NAGA's and whatnot.

    None of that. It's 65% bitching about BJJ, 30% calling out grapplers way out of their league, 5% techniques. It's so immature it's no wonder it constantly implodes on itself. I really thought MMA and BJJ really buried what basically constituted what was effective in combat sports but apparently not.

    I just want to see wrestling and catch wrestling stuff, not people moaning that BJJ has more of a platform.
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Honestly mate the elitism in Catch is hard to stomach.....even more when you realize that most are “newcomers” in relative terms or else don’t actually train that much

    I have been preaching Catch for years, but even i keep distance from a lot of those boards and stay for the occasional nugget of corn in the poop...the good posted is very good; the rest pretty horrible
     
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  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Just quit that FB group. You will be better for it. I had joined a CLF group, but it was full of one lineage complaining about other lineages. Lot's of elitism too. I wanted to stay hoping to learn from different CLF people, but it was too toxic. I felt better for not having it in my feed.

    Quit, you will feel better when you do.
     
  4. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    As said just quit catch is without doubt the most toxic grappling art and the one that competes the least....think there is a correlation between those two...

    I remember on another kung fu board a wing chun and catch guy tried to argue why catch was superior to bjj he ended up arguing with me when at the time I was winning a fair few matches, a Canadian national judoka and bjj competitor, a bjj brown belt under Lloyd Irwin who was winning national GI and no GI titles and a original dog brother and bjj black belt....

    Turned out his catch experience was a few seminars with Tony C and watching Tony's videos nothing more, and that even though he lived in new York he had never done a single bjj class.

    He had access to some of the best bjj in the world on his door step but preferred to train by tape.

    Honestly catch seems to attract these guys
     
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  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Even the catch folk I see online refuse to take up freestyle or join pro wrestling clubs. It's defo the WC of grappling.

    Icefield - you're a bjj brown belt?
     
  6. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Nope sorry that was 4 different people he was arguing with:
    Me
    A Canadian national judoka and bjj guy
    A bjj brown belt
    And a second degree blackbelt

    Than forum was very lucky in having a number of high level grapplers there for some unknown reason

    He even sent a catch tape to the bjj brown belt who.looked at it and said it was OK but nothing he hadn't seen in wrestling or bjj lol
     
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah I left. Sick of arguing about it. I might rejoin if/when the mentality improves.
     
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    IMO, It isn't just that certain styles attract toxic people - although that might be true as well. It is that online lends to a toxic environment. This can happen in any group. It's the whole anonymity of never seeing people face to face thing.

    You can look at comments on YouTube martial arts sites and see tons of toxic comments. Regardless of style or school. Good or bad - negative comments abound.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I’d be offended if it wasn’t true!
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter


    It’s because it’s essentially a “lost” art and you can cloak a lot of it in mystique and mysticism

    The high profile advocates such as Josh Barnett are beyond reproach in terms of competitive skill set, and there are now actual events cropping up that look better than inter club sparring.

    Obviously my coach Harry competes and there are guys like Travis Newaza, Johnny Buck, Brandon Ruiz all representing outside the art too. And let’s not forget Curran Jacobs, who I went from absolute distaste for to a grudging admiration and we are now actually friends (of sorts)....but outside of a small cadre very, very few compete in “just Catch” as there simply isn’t the talent pool or depth to do so.

    There is a healthy community in Lancashire with Jack Mountfield and some of the old guard. Even Marty Jones is still active believe it or not. Japan is still a good place for it, Sak and Fujiwara being prominent examples

    The chirping tends to come from the sidelines; those who have heard of Catch and latch onto it as a new “panacea”....Matt Furey kinda started that IMO and although he was largely discredited it snowballed

    It will settle down and Catch will regain its reputation, but there are a LOT of growing pains and hangers on to dispose of
     
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think the ego isn't as prominent in this country. It does seem to be more of an American thing. I've rolled with one true Catch lad in my time. He was English, strong as an ox and also a lovely guy. Didn't try and crank anything or beat me up (although he did beat me up no doubt because he was just better than me).
     
  12. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I'd say Tony Cecchine started it way before Furey and at least Furey had an actual wrestling background and not a made up golden gloves history and a bad back lol

    I'm not sure it will come back its been dead for decades its been surpassed by bjj and no GI grappling, its a shame but either its really hard to teach or went too far down the show route but for some reason its simply lost popularity and for a large part effectiveness in what a vast majority taught
     
  13. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I wonder if more of these situations have to do with people who have not went out of their way to train in different things, or put themselves in a competitive environment more than it is a specific style (they just happen to congregate in styles that allow a closed off atmosphere)

    A few months ago I was talking to the guy I started martial arts with 14 years ago. We started in Isshinryu Karate, and while the syllabus wasn't terrible it lacked sparring and serious hands on application. I moved on to an MMA gym, went into the military, and had gotten into boxing until that avenue slammed its door in my face. He stopped training, and became a pharmacist.

    Regardless of our life routes and experience with martial arts and violence in general, he is extremely confident in his ability to handle a violent situation given his minimal training in classes that offered little to no actual contact. All without having been in any actual fights as well. No matter how much I tried to convince him otherwise (and you would think somebody who has trained in multiple areas, been in combat, and competed might have some sway) I couldn't change his mind. It was like taking a time traveling trip to the early 2000's when the UFC was starting to get big and you had the "traditional arts are the st33t d34dly5" arguments.

    I got him to go to a BJJ class which he took up for a little bit and it started to look like he was figuring out his place, but I haven't talked to him in quite some time.

    Does catch wrestling provide the environment for these kinds of people, or do these kinds of people create the environment and by chance a certain style just ends up representing them? It's not like the information isn't out there, or the ability to test your skills in a safe manner at other gyms isn't available.
     
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    As far as I'm aware they pride themselves on a few things:

    • Catch wrestlers don't butt scoot and don't pull guard because if you do that in a street fight it's bad
    • They pride themselves on just how brutal it is to study (and it can be very painful as it relies a lot on pain compliant techniques) and then wonder why everyone isn't doing it
    • They seem to be very envious of BJJ and it's podium as one of the best grappling arts. They hold up what few examples of catch wrestlers they have and parade them as Gods even though none of them have won a major submissions tournament ever (unless you include Metamoris and Josh Barnett which was excellent).
    • They complain about no tournaments for CACC but none of them are willing to put one forward, more content just to believe their grappling is superior than other arts without testing it
    I could go on but you get the idea....
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    There is certainly a case to be made for that, but he never had anything close to the (still limited) public aeareness Furey had.

    Furey effectively started in 1996 with his first book and was in fact in business with Cecchine for a while and introduced him to Thesz - I have a copy somewhere of the seminar they did together. They split up somewhat sourly and given the fact both are viewed dimly by the community as a whole it their "start" of the CACC being high profile is of questionable value outside of it was in fact Furey that fist brought Gotch back to the public eye (which he can be thanked for even though Gotch disowned him)

    Barnett showed the relevance by smashing two high level BJJ players - the Lister match in particular was a Catch "clinic". It will never come close to BJJ levels, simply because it lacks the marketing machine not because it lacks applicability
     
  16. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    And for every Barnett you have a takada or a funaki guys talked about as gods and wrecked by Gracie's

    When you say marketing machine you mean the fact that bjj went and won in real fights and real no holds barred when the catch guys were faking it and by and large got found out the hard way when they trained the real stuff?

    Let's not get romantized here catch was represented in the ufc (ken) and in japan's early matches and didn't do well

    Josh and sakuraba are the two examples brought up of catch being as good as bjj, one of those was a free style stand out as a kid and also did judo, the others main coach was also a bjj blackbelt

    But if we put all that to one side and take them as strict catch only guys it doesn't say much about the art that it's turned out two great fighters in decades of trying

    Bjjs greatness is that it is a great proven grappling atyle produces great ground fighters in abundance that isn't marketing that's the simple truth
     
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  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Oh and I'm not even a bjj guy I hate the nutriding that comes with it and the whole lifestyle rubbish, I prefer nogi and wrestling and have trained with Robinson and roli delgado so I'm not closed mind, but it's obvious that bjj has something catch does not, and its not good marketing
     
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  18. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Pretty much all this. All other grappling styles are a lot cooler about how they perform and their specialties.
     
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  19. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Pain compliance in what sense? BJJ relies on pain compliance as well, but the pain comes prior to actual serious injury (like an armbar). Are we talking about pain without serious consequences like a wrist lock or headlock?

    BJJ has its problems too. I remember there being some really good guys when I was training but once you add punches to the face they lost a significant amount of ability under the new pressure. The reduction of ability would be fine against an unskilled opponent but it became much easier to avoid techniques if you had an idea of what they were trying to do. No style really seems to be a cure all, but there are certainly benefits to learning them.

    I don't understand the anti-pulling guard stance a lot of people seem to take. I've used it in a couple of different scenarios and while not ideal it certainly saved my butt. I even used it during the popular pugil stick thing the Marines do in training. I lost my footing on initial contact and fell to the ground, then as the other guy comes full force to stick me with the "bayonet" end of the stick I misdirected his arms with my legs, knocked the pugil stick to the side and then had him in my guard. Seemed like a life saver to me : P. Obviously personal anecdote doesn't prove anything, but pulling guard (something I hate doing) has helped me quite a bit in very volatile situations.

    You should do a Bullshido style meet and greet with them xD
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Takada was never anything but a puorseau guy - pretty much the CM Punk of Pride - yet was still able to take Royce to a decision. Sak is very dismissive of Takada's skill and ascribes hi sprofile to being exactly what he was; a household name in a high profile situation.

    Funaki lost, but then again that was against THE man - Rickson beats everyone by armbar is the 11th commandment after all - Funaki also beat may other high level fighters. He was not the GOAT, but was no scrub either

    Some persepctive and an interesting PoV - MASAKATSU FUNAKI: VICTORIES, DEFEATS AND CRITICS

    ALL the current UFC champs are wrestlers - and lets not forget Paulson back in the day equally proved his pedigree. Need I also mention Severn and Couture?

    The reason Catch fell off was because of the pro game - even back in the day with Ed Lewis it was easier and more profitable to fake it. That said Gotch (Istaz) and Robinson would certainly have thrived if not dominated in MMA. Ad Santel regularly smashed Ju Jutsu and Judo players

    He lost once in the UFC and "drew" (won IR) the rematch - his Japanese career was a success as was Frank's and manh other Lions Den fighters. As the game moved on so we no longer see "style vs style" so much as teh appropriate blend for an individual - "pure" BJJ gets it **** handed to it more often than not by average grapplers with solid striking in an MMA context

    And Josh is VERY quick to point out his BJJ black belt doesn't mean what you think - https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/josh-barnett-yes-i-have-a-bjj-black-belt-but-its-not-what-you-think/

    How many top level BJJ players fight MMA? Not many because they do BJJ so it isn't that great a metric

    It has turned out many more just not in as many numbers as other arts because - as stated - it is a "lost" art with a smaller practice base. Fewer people doing it means fewer people succeeding at high level - simple maths.

    I still train BJJ - in fact I will be training with Marcel Louzado again in October - but I am far more of a Catch Wrestler and can still hold my own against BJJ players - the more open minded have actually picked up one or two things from me (that I was taught by Harry who was taught by Billy) and so the whole circle of life goes on

    Catch is no longer a "pure" discipline (if it ever was) and these days is very much a "stone soup" - there are strict Catch guys out there, but they are few and far between

    And the abundance is because it was marketed well on the back of the early UFC - that's the simple truth too.

    Take away the UFC and it is still being taught in a garage in LA - in fact one of the early adapters was my old teacher Vunak
     

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