Capture smoke

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    Very true. Training the spirit comes through training the body and that ichimonji no kamae will end fights before they start. We're 98% chimp, the older mammalian parts of the brain are very effective at understanding subtle signals.

    (I think I'd say 'internalize' rather than 'understand', but that's probably just an arbitrary word preference.)
  2. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    And apparently 50% Banana. Do they play a role too? :D
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Poetry? Ah yes! To Nin or not to Nin, that is the question.

    I already pointed out some of the things that you have to start doing and what levels you have to pass in this thread already. There are certain natural phenomenon that make for good things to meditate on. It requires reflection and introspection, and quite a bit of analytical thinking to figure out how to make them into a reality. At other times, the analogy just clicks something and you understand what you did or are trying to get to being able to do.

    Again though, it's more than insights. Besides the things everyone has mentioned, it is a part of a process of development. Besides internalizing the correct movement(which changes at each stage), you also have to deal with how will gets in the way of certain skill sets. You also have to learn to let go of strength, power, and trying to hurt the guy. Being in the right spot and using just the right impetus to make him do the work for you is important, as is a deep understanding of the body structure and how best to affect its functioning. Learning how and where he can't fight back is also vital. These are a few of the things that make a big difference at this point.
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    There is more than one path up the mountain.

    So, you're saying you can do it then?
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Which of the above cannot be defined as an insight?

    Whether it is your own exploration, or signposts (explicit, cryptic or gleaned through observation) given by another, I think it does come from insights.

    Yes, there are huge swathes of prerequisites, but many people develop these without ever getting near the full package of abilities we're talking about.

    Do you feel these abilities represent the zenith of practice? I agree it takes mastery of many aspects to pull it off, but like anything it is appropriate only in the proper context.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  6. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    When I hear the word insight, I tend to think of a mental thing. Insight is important but more so is putting the gained insights into practice. So without the physical component, all the insight in the world won't help. Developing the ability to move like that, apply techniques with near effortlessness, and become unfathomable, are a pretty large undertaking. I think it would be useful in nearly any context. I've been told there is a stage beyond that so no I do not think it is the zenith. However, it is a large enough goal in and of itself.
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not in these arts really. There is one path, particularly arduous, and tread by few. Now are there other arts that have ways to develop such an ability? I believe so. However, for these arts, there is a particular methodology that has been shown to work and many others that have proven not to.

    Like I said earlier, there are times when I can do things similar to my teacher, but of course there is still a big difference. Certain things close, more things not even. Still a long ways to climb.
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The body/mind distinction is another dichotomy that I feel is false, and can inhibit holistic practice.

    If I've understood you correctly, the sticky/confusing/unbalancing/sneaky way is obviously a great ability, but there are other approaches. To get all analogous, you can be like sock fluff in the bath, you can also be like an unstoppable spear, you can weave opponents at your will, you can end every attack in stalemate, you can find the line to a target in any situation.

    There ain't but the one way... unless you specialise.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    So Buj is a specialism then?

    As for your second paragraph, that is exactly how I would describe myself. (edit: actually, "similar to my teacher" is not correct, as we are different people with different ways. More like I am beginning to utilise the keys he has given me, but to master them I must make them my own. To want to copy him would be futile, as I could never reach my own potential trying to be like someone else.)
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  10. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Hi David

    Been looking at your website, what exactly is Marbo and the pathwalkers guild? Also you mentioned your teacher, but can find no instructors or their qualifications on the website you link to.

    This is not an attack, but as this thread talks about becoming smoke, something you seem a little skeptical of, what is "Esoteric Pathwalker Training (Sandman), and words like "And the opponents projected energy recycled"

    Now I know that becoming smoke might sound kind of esoteric, but some of the terms on that website seem equally so.

    Also you page "Marbo-Non sport martial art" seems to compare itself with special forces training but in actuality seems to have a similar training methodology to Bujinkan i.e. demonstrate a technique and then rehearse in slow motion"

    Can you explain more, i'm curious.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Oh god, no. The horror!

    This has been covered ad nauseam in the "pathwalker guild" thread. Please reference that rather than derail this thread, which I am finding quite interesting. Feel free to PM me with any questions not addressed in that thread.

    What made you think that I am skeptical?

    The only thing I have been skeptical about in this thread is the efficacy of poetic analogies in training. But I'm happy to be shown that it's just my simple saxon mind that makes me think that the people who do it well must have had specific technical training to achieve higher-level practice.

    My last few posts were giving my opinion that becoming "smoke" is just one of a number of higher practices.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  12. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Thanks David

    I'll have a read
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I look forward to hearing back from you in a couple of weeks :)
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Only 50 pages to go. interesting in your post you said "Just my simple Saxon mind" when according to that thread your all Celts.

    Ok off topic, i'll continue reading.
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I've said since the beginning of the topic that it's very high level stuff(at least I think I did, I meant to anyway).

    Gotta mimic first, internalize later, create your own eventually. Most get the order wrong or want to skip steps. Can't play jazz unless you can hit the keys well.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The mind and body cannot exist as separate entities, unless the spinal cord is severed.

    You might appreciate the existence of a concept as an intellectual abstraction, but you cannot be said to understand or gained insight unless you can put the concept into practice.

    You seem to be describing the application of a host of higher-level techniques, but becoming smoke is just one approach in applying them. If you don't get that I'm not sure how else to put it.

    Mimicry is only productive up to the point that what is being learned fits the criteria, and can be made to work in practical application. Refinement of this can be steered by instruction, but is more informed by practice. Lots and lots of practice.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think at least this thread has proved the efficacy of analogy as a means of communication.
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, I've read through the thread again, and believe I can formulate an answer to your question, in general terms:

    1) Natural ability and perseverance. By natural ability, I'm basically talking about the opposite of dispraxia.

    2) A teacher who can do it, and pass on the ability to someone with requisite amounts of the above.

    3) Mastery of a system of movements, principles and tactics that can enable it. At higher levels this must include isolation and unison of muscle sets (I found it interesting you saying earlier that power must come from the legs, as higher practice includes the ability to generate power in "unorthodox" ways, and utilising "unorthodox" muscle sets. To take the conceptual worth of a system to a hypothetical extreme, if those concepts would not give you a viable fighting system in micro-gravity, it is a conceptually limited system). This isolation/unison includes lack of preparatory and extraneous movement, as well as the ability to give false preparatory and extraneous movements. There are numerous subteties that can be applied to great effect once this level of coordination and power generation is mastered.

    4) Sensitivity and psychology; the ability to react as fast as another can act. If they display preparatory movement, it can seem as if you are reacting before they act. Spacial and body awareness will allow experienced practitioners to pre-empt those of lesser ability. These abilities can also be used to confound and confuse. Sensitivity includes all of the senses, and I am not discounting saaki from this (you may say that saaki is an action, not a sense, but again I feel this is a false dichotomy). In this I also include blind-spots and emotional games.

    Notice that I omitted no-mind and intent; this is because it is impossible to achieve the above without those things. Once again, they are the same, not a dichotomy. Acting, or false intent comes with the ability to control intent also.

    3 and 4 are two parts of a whole really, but 3 was getting too long :)

    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  19. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Then there was this lady.

    [ame=""]Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit - YouTube[/ame]
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Aw, and there I was, thinking someone had posted an informed, technical response to my post :(

    But... she knew the notes.

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