Capture smoke

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    So we agree that the foundations need to be there

    In my view there are other factors that can also be brought to bear. Again probably these are not exclusive to the buj

    Simple examples (hopefully obvious) to illustrate the point:
    - A sudden, unexpected noise/shout can tense people up for a moment, creating an opening
    - Knowing that certain actions will elicit predictable responses from people’s muscles allowing you to move ahead of them
    - Attacking several (well chosen) places simultaneously can significantly slow down the body & brain’s responses
    - Understanding how humans judge distance can help you create situations where they misjudge distance
    - Manipulating the body’s kinaesthetic sense can unbalance people or allow you to set up waza without them feeling it
    - Etc
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    dunc - Again though none of that is necessarily unique. It's basic strategy and tactics taught in most martial arts. Knowing what you want to do and doing it effectively though are two different things. Hence why those three are still the ideal foundation. Once those are developed to a high degree makes the little tricks be the icing on the cake.
  3. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Agree 100%
  4. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    The only really unique thing in the booj is Hatsumi, his thought process and mindset is quite wacky and creates wonderful ideas. The basic techniques and strategies... they are found everywhere.

    There are some other gems in the org too, but he is the standout.
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Dunc's list above reminded me of approaches I've seen used in systema videos.

    Here is an interesting hypothesis (refreshingly non-analogous!) regarding part of what we're talking about:

    Regarding basics and foundations, there are "extra little tricks" you can add to make your movement very difficult to predict, and even hard to read while you're moving. Maybe a few talented people figure this out by themselves, maybe they don't understand how they do it beyond invoking a feeling.

    I feel that capturing a feeling is for beginners, in this context - a feeling is an idea waiting to be articulated. Applying feelings to techniques you understand on a conscious level, down to absolute minutiae, that's a different matter.

    Hatsumi and a couple of his pals look like people who have been taught this stuff systematically and methodically. They do not look like people who have "captured a feeling".
  6. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Are you referring to the "feeling" mentioned in the systema article?

    What do people look like who have "captured a feeling"

    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I wasn't referring to the systema article, I was referring to PR's use of vague analogies and mysterious "ingredient x".

    I got the impression he thought it is not something that can be taught per se, but it is a feeling you embody. I've heard similar talk from the buj before.
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    To make it clear: if ye olde ancient scrolls are full of vague analogies, then they are the smoke being blown up people's back passage, and the "real stuff" is transmitted in other ways.

    ...would be my guess :)
  9. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    I think it was me who used the "ingredient x". That was merely to say that not everyone, no matter what training they have, will necessarily "get it"
  10. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    So you think that ingraining this stuff so it becomes subconcious is incorrect?
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, but I do think that vague analogies and abstract descriptions are the refuge of those who don't really hold the keys, or hold them but don't want to give them up.

    If this stuff is truly ingrained, then any number of feelings may be applied to the same motions.

    When you are starting out, sometimes you don't understand how you did something beyond a vague feeling. Replicating that feeling replicates the technique. For some people, that's enough, but to effectively understand, codify and pass on to others, it is not.
  12. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Both possibilities should be considered. :D
  13. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Not unless all the external stimuli are exactly identical. Hence why principles and angles of attack are of more interest than techniques.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I was including that in the term "techniques".

    Do you see a dichotomy?

    Oh, and I wasn't talking about the basic movements of a technique, but the principles behind it to make it work, or what can feel like "hitting the sweet spot".
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  15. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned


    There is a difference between teaching a person to memorize specific techniques and perform them under pressure, or teaching said person to internalize principles and react correctly.
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio


    If you teach someone how to throw a straight punch, there are an infinite amount of ways they can apply that.

    Does that make the straight punch a technique or a principle?

    If you are genuinely testing your techniques under pressure, they can never be applied in a truly identical way twice. So are you not applying the principle of a technique?

    Unless when you say "principles" you are actually referring to tactics. In which case, tactics are useless without being able to apply appropriate techniques.
  17. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Depends on how it's taught. "Le contexte est plus fort que le concept", as MC Solaar once put it.
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Actually, the kuden and poetic usage of language are more like a koan or other way to elicit a sudden understanding of principles difficult to master. If they were the only means of instruction, I could see the claim that they might be a way to avoid teaching or an excuse for those that know not how they do something, but neither is the case. This stuff isn't for beginners or those at even an intermediate level, though insight can come at any time.

  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Experiencing conflict in fights, competition, sparring, etc. is important, but to me the reasons have less to do with this stage we're discussing here and more to do with inuring yourself to that reality and testing your survival mechanism.

    If you understand ichimonji no kamae, you can pretty much deal with a lot of things you will find in everyday street encounters. Most people don't, so they can't even interpret such a statement. The art gets simpler as you go along but there are stages of growth that one must pass through.
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    So, what insights do you believe are necessary for becoming smoke?

    If you have this ability, what role did poetry have in attaining it?

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