Capture smoke

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Those three parts are the key in my eyes. He has trained and applied those concepts since his first time in a gi in both a cooperative and competitive aspect. His instructor has done the same and has a great deal of experience. Their key objective is to draw an attack, evade it to their opponent's blind spot, and counter with a technique they deliberately try to make you unable to see. They accomplish it well too.
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter


    just out of curiosity, where do you practice? states, or the uk? if you don't want to divulge a specific dojo, any particular association?

    i think this is a great discussion by the way. touches on many things. and note, i'm just trying to get to what the higher levels of your art teach. fascinating stuff.

  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Playing DA, perhaps they can't move like smoke and their abilities have been massively exaggerated?

    What I have seen from Ninjutsu shows nothing extraordinary - that includes The Boss am even the old b&w Takamatsu footage. It isn't a case of "cannot" or "will not" understand the mystic concepts, more that they are erroneously described.
    Certainly Takamatsu describing how he would beat Rikidozan made no oblique references, so why there has been a latter resurgence of te more esoteric aspects is something of a puzzle
  4. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Is there an argument for genetics as well? Using the Anderson Silva example, I know he trains with Freddie Roach and of course the great grandmaster Segal, but I don't really think someone can be that good on training alone.

    edit: Also the mystical talk about being like smoke and something about gourds has left me confused for 7 pages. Is the topic basically how come some people are incredibly elusive?
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    As to why can some people do it better than others - does everyone who plays basketball get into the NBA? Does everyone who trains in boxing go pro? Does every child who picks up a golf club become the next Tiger Woods? It all depends on desire and how hard you train. Most people do not train as hard as they can/should. If you can honestly say you train as often as you possibly can and mean it 100% truthfully, then there's nothing stopping you. If you can't say you do, then that's what you're missing.

    Take my Enshin friend. When I first met him he lived in a studio apartment a block away from the dojo where he had a heavy bag, a cot, a laptop, and some books as his furnishings. He worked from home so he fit his training in day and night, virtually every day of the week. Call me crazy but that could be how he got that good.
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Genetics plays a role, no doubt. But even if you have the best genetics, if you're not willing to train as hard as you can to develop your ability then you won't reach your goals. Plain and simple. If Anderson Silva just attended class a few times a week and did nothing else, do you think he would be as good as he is today?
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    How about Bruce Lee? Could he move like smoke? Supposedly he liked to have punches just graze his face, but that could just be something the Wed Night guys made up. Let's just pretend for arguments sake that they can, where does that leave us(because if they can't, there isn't much to discuss).

    The descriptions that were passed on for hundreds of years aren't erroneous. Problem is to really know, you have to try to peg somebody or throw them or grab them to find out. For those who haven't had the displeasure of doing so, they shouldn't take it on faith if they don't feel like it. However, that doesn't give them much to argue about either.

    Perhaps a cork floating on a tub makes more sense to a modern day person but the point remains the same. You don't have to like or even understand the language if you can put it into practice that is the important point. The how that happens was the crux of the discussion, odd that many keep missing that.
  8. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Hi Crazy:love:, you didn't answer my question about judo and Mifune Sensei. A lot of people eat, sleep, and bleed judo but they don't even come close. So is there not something beyond that, even in an art as far removed from its roots as judo?
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The problem with Bruce is that there is a lot of footage available of him that shows he was perfectly mortal

    The same rumours and tales of his prowess are thrown about as with this topic - yet even a cursory glance shows that he was capable but nothing more. This does not invalidate the experience of those who trained with him, but is strongly suggests that perhaps they just oversold the encounter to themselves.

    Eye witness testimony is the least reliable evidential source for a reason
  10. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I believe this is an outtake from a much longer video which I can't find right now.

    [ame=""]fastest punches - YouTube[/ame]

    At some point, I recall seeing that Bruce proceeds to throw a punch towards the reporter's face. The interesting thing to notice at that point, is that the reporter- a totally untrained person - flinches backwards and closes his eyes with exactly the same speed of the incoming attack.
  11. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I think this is a different video, but anyways...

    [ame=""]Bruce Lee æŽå°é¾ Fastest Kicks ever seen by the world - Timed frame-by-frame - YouTube[/ame]
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Exactly. And with these people PR is talking about... there is no proof.

    Where is the proof!

    I sound like Garth!

    If we are talking about the magical movement that people have seen in Ali, Silva, Lee (and for the sake of clarity glossing over the many many times those people have been hit, beaten, or almost beaten and very much unsmokelike). This cannot be be PROVED without an external factor.

    Performing smoke-esque moves within a closed environment of Tori/Uke and being attacked by subordinates is not going to:

    a. Prove that the movement is genuine
    b. Hone the skills necessary to make the movement possible.

    The incestuousness nature of the training puts a ceiling on ability, the potential might be there, but until tested externally it is most likely not to be achieved.

    Big fish small pond syndrome.
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    No proof? Why they are mostly still living and all it takes is a plane ticket and train ride to find out if what I am saying is true or not. No proof? Isn't it in the fact that these densho and kuden speak of just that? There is video footage and testimony of people from outside arts and much more. Yet none of these equals experiencing it for yourself.

    For the sake of argument though, if you are going to post in the thread, you should be from the premise that it is possible. Otherwise, you can believe that it isn't and keep your opinions out of the thread. There is enough evidence pointing to the fact that such ability exists that there is no need to get into a Garthonian exercise of "show me the money," again. The people with the ability are known to most in the Bujinkan, and enough practitioners have felt this first hand to back up the claims. People have already posted videos from other arts showing something they claim is of a similar ken so no point in wasting breath or time with those who think it's impossible. They are welcome to their opinion but it has nothing to do with the OP.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Except that nobody is saying that they are immortal. Nor infallible. Just that they can move like smoke. Am I missing something here? Eye witness testimony is for those who have seen this in action. There are countless. We are referring to having experienced it in action. Have you not in all your years of martial arts training? If so, what do you attribute that ability to? If not, perhaps you should come to Japan and try ninjutsu.:eek:
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You missed my point.

    You come to Japan you will not see a Bujinkan person in Yaburi. You will see them in a bubble.

    In a bubble you cannot achieve the levels you talk of without honing outside of the group.

  16. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    They move like smoke with another bujinkaner, but to really move like smoke it must be with a real opponent.

    Sorry to press the point but you seem to have misunderstood me.
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You would just have to bring fresh meat. I understand your point. It has been proven before and can be again.
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Ahh we're getting somewhere!

    So, would the lions be the same?

    The people age, the fighters become teachers, who are the next generation, and where have they been tested?
  19. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    You can spar though, if you know where to look.
  20. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Indeed, and a good thing that is too. But sparring at that level again in the homogenous environment has limitations that would prevent development to the smoke like folk I have used as a benchmark here.

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