Capture smoke

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Gapjumper posted

    If there a problem with quality in the Bujinkan of course it lies with him.

    I'll ask you a question.

    Imagine you take your car into a garage to get fixed and the garage does a bad job, so you ask to see the owner of the company. Is the owner saying "the problem doesn't lay with me as its down to the quality of my mechanics" good enough for you?

    Now I know that a very simple analogy, but the only one that could have stopped the bad quality problem was Hatsumi, and trying to divert that blame away from him is just a cop out.

    In regard to the title of this thread about capturing smoke, i'd say that the only way the Bujinkan seems like smoke is that we have a very good idea of what is good quality and bad quality when it comes to judging people, but when one makes judgements on the actual organisation the bench marks change or a smoke screen is errected to try to move any attention away from the point made in regard to the organisation.
  2. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Gapjumper posted

    I agree BUT if they do fit into the above criteria, why then award them with a grade that makes them think they are correct in their view/practice, and give them teaching licence to allow it to be passed onto others?
  3. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    That's a weird analogy and in no way applies here. Thinking of martial arts in that way might hinder you.

    Should you be able to take a clapped out fiesta in and expect the mechanic to make it able to win Le Mans?

    Please don't derail this thread with the OT agenda. There is already a thread for moaning about QC.

    Who is this WE?

    And as PR said...maybe, just maybe, that is exactly the point.

    Or not.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  4. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    There's an easy way to capture smoke. Inhale :D
  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    By now everyone should no this is a zero tolerance forum. bPlease keep replies on topic or I will start reporting them. This is NOT a discussion about quality control, there are many threads that were if anybody feels like ressurecting one.

    To David's post that, "You seem to be implying that there is more to it than the way they use their body, and the body of their opponent."

    No, all fighting is what you feel, think, and do. How your energy and mind encounters the opponents in the physical realm.
  6. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Let's drop the quality control issue from this thread. It's been done to death and there are plenty of other threads where it can be discussed. Thank you.
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Just to reiterate the OP, how can one capture smoke? The adverse of course being, how does one get to the point when they become smoke that their opponent cannot capture?
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    The more you reach for it, the further you push it away.

    Keep training and it will arrive when it is ready...

    (or maybe you could generate a static electrical charge ;) )
  9. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    The Shihan and Soke are men, they can get hit. If you ask them are they like smoke and impossible to hit they will look at you like a looney (and not for the purposes of Kyojutsu).

    Some of the best 'like smoke' movement I have ever seen, check 3:20 and from 3:40.

  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I would say yes and no. Clearly things like stickiness and no-intent can be trained intentionally to a certain extent so indeed there is some will in letting go do the will.
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    How do you develop this skill is the question? How can you make it so no matter what he does he gets deeper into a trap? Can you stick to his sword with your Bo so that even if he blocks your strike it does no good? It becomes heavy and stuck.
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You develop skill like that from several areas:

    1. Innate Talent - allowing you the ability to learn faster, this cannot be taught but people can learn the same things by studying more, no different from any other subject.
    2. Conditioning your body to be flexible and strong and healthy in order to move in any direction whilst maintaining control of you balance and kamae.
    3. Access to teachers who can show you the correct forms and techniques to implement the above.
    4. Access to teachers who can build upon the physical basics above by breaking them down, understanding the meaning and essence behind the basic movements and isolate threats and weaknesses within them, and implement strategy around movement and psychology of yourself and others in order to predict movements and control actions.
    5. Testing the above through trial by fire against other people, firstly within your art, and then outside of your art in competition.
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Good things to have, but with luxuries like those, more people should be getting it. I know Hatsumi sensei taught the traditional way before the gaijin invasion, no room for questions or talking. Just a lot of exploration through practice. Looking at him training with Takamatsu Sensei, often looked like he had two left thumbs.
  14. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Yes it can be trained to some extent. The stickiness and intent definitely.

    Some things do arrive in unexpected chunks though. But I won't divert onto the s-word though :)
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I don't understand your post.

    I don't think people have those 5 points checked, I don't think anyone does in the Bujinkan, so I don't understand why 'more people should be getting it'

    Could you elaborate?
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Some have had all or most of those points, some less than others. Again though, having a great teacher doesn't guarantee success. So there must be something beyond those points that bears greater weight on one's ability to master this or not. Things I look at are a paring down and simplification of one's movement. Of course the bigger basic and intermediate motions and movements have to have been mastered and internalized. Think of the way of avoiding where you first let them hit you, secondly move just a bit off line, third more until they are barely grazing you, and fourth just enough to barely miss getting hit.

    Next I would look at using the legs to power the motion of the hands/arms. This is a big one. Of course ashi sabaki and tai sabaki as well and correct distancing and angling. Not being afraid of being hit and knowing just when to move and how much are another aspect. Letting go of power and trying and just letting your body do can't be forgotten. Of course there's more but just reciting all of these things a discussion does not make.
  17. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I don't see anything too exciting here to discuss, you are talking about footwork and movement in order to recreate things like Silva or Ali were doing... its very true, but nothing really worth getting my teeth into for me.

    The key to 'getting it' in the bujinkan is that nobody has got it. They have it up to their own false ceiling, but not in reality.

    And the reason for that is that people don't do the 5 steps. Some definitely do some, but the key, lacking step (which I agree isn't an easy thing) is compete. There is no Gracie challenge, there is no yaburi, there is no fearless warrior going to challenge Chinese masters and fighting tigers, it is all just theoretical, so akin to this forum.

    So you can never move like smoke in the bujinkan, because it is only against people who buy into your smoke, at different levels of fake resistance of course, but never against a real opponent.

    That's my take on it.
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Should everyone in the buj be aiming to achieve this elusive "something else"?

    It's already been implied that some may be innately unable to get there, or perhaps most people?

    Is it taken for granted that the end product should resemble Hatsumi? Or do these handful of smokey guys have their own way of expressing it?
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    No, the most important thing is attitude. With the wrong ones, one can never get it.

    With a closed mind there can be no discussion.
  20. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    So we are agreed then, people these days don't get it because of attitude. The right attitude is to train as hard as possible to pressure test your skills, as did your teacher and his teacher, however these days I haven't seen a single person do it.

    If you consider moving like smoke as I do (as per the video) then neither your teacher and certainly not his can do this anymore, you will not see them Yaburi either as they a. know they cannot, and b. know there is too much to lose.

    Yaburi is a young mans game, a fighter. Fighters can learn to move like smoke from teachers, coupled with the level of training required to defeat other people, through practice and drilling.

    Nobody trains like that anymore, so nobody can move like smoke.

    If you start training like that you can move like smoke.


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