Capoeira Effectiveness

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by BlueDot, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    That is true. But the main arguement that I'm trying to bring across is that the ginga would still be more draining then say a boxer's stance as a comparison point. So either drop the ginga or way up the conditioning.

    Interesting theory though. I just think that the match would be very boring in the latter rounds :p

    I remember being taught that about de compasso as well. But I found that this kick was good enough to be used pretty much anywhere and anytime. It can generate an evil amount of momentum on just the heel, and make your body a really small target. The issue was that a lot times, people simply saw it coming just from my ginga, or they were fast enough to evade and get me on the way up. A lot of the MMA matches that Hapuka posted showed these guys using this kick just out of the blue, but, with a few exceptions, this ended up being more useful for control and less so for attacking (nothing wrong with that).

    In regional these steps are performed in order to generate power and lift.

    Yeh my bad. Had no intentions of going off topic.

    Valid assessment. Then I must say that for me personally, this is a bad trade off xD, but that’s not to mean that the concept is crazy.

    Well the mirroring is another problem that I have with Capoeira. Not so much the mirroring itself, more the fact that it’s only smart when sparring Capo vs. Capo. When you expose the ginga to a more “static” stance like a boxer, the mirroring concept become pointless. We can save this for somewhere and sometime else TBH though :p

    @ the bolded part:

    This would also be going a bit off topic, but with a basic boxing stance, you needn’t have to alter the stance when you add in kicks and grappling techniques. What you would need is to learn more defensive techniques and maneuvers (like the shin guard for low kicks, and how to avoid takedowns).

    I do understand what you mean with your last sentence. Not my personal preference, but it’s a valid point.
  2. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Sorry being vague.

    But by moving I meant the agressiveness and overall speed of their attacks. I've seen guys move fast and agressive in Capoeira, but nothing quite on the same level as these guys.

    Hope this clarifies.
  3. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    I won't argue with the fatigue comparison. Though I reserve the right to change my mind if I ever take boxing in the future and feel like there isn't much difference.

    Sure, it could be, but some boxing matches or even MMA fights are boring in the latter rounds. :cool: If someone is going into MMA with capoeira as their striking base they should be prepared to bring, or they'll suffer the consequences.

    Well, sure. On the one hand, far be it from me to critique these guys who have actually put their capoeira to the test and in the ring--and done well with it. But on the other hand, when I did first see these videos, I was thinking, 'why is he throwing that kick now?' As you say, the kicks did serve as a form of control, keeping the opponent at distance. As for catching someone when they come up from it, in angola we're usually taught several different ways to come out of an attack and allowed to improvise others. For instance, Mestre Joao Grande talks about 'always' doing pulo dislocamento (a short, shrunken half cartwheel like movement out of the line of engagement) when doing Rabo da Arraia/Meia Lua de Compasso. Moreover, we're continually admonished not to just 'pop back up' (to standing) after low attacks, as the transition from low to high can be vulnerable. That keeps a person from falling victim to that trap. Though of course every counter has a counter d infinitum.

    Yeah, I'll leave that to discuss, then.

    No worries. From this thread I have several ideas for threads that I'm hoping soon. It's just that responding to this thread, my academic duties and other real life things have the nerve to get in the way.

    No worries. Different strokes for different folks.

    I have a problem with the (constant) mirroring even within capoeira, but that is my pet peeve. I think that if ginga is to be useful in a fight (and I know that for a lot of people--inside and outside of capoeira--it is still debatable whether it is, it will have to be practiced against other stances in order for capoeiristas to work out how to use it, if possible.

    Yeah, I was thinking of Muay Thai even as was finishing typing that response, but was to stubborn to go back and add an addendum.

  4. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Got ya. Well, I've seen mestres (for example Mestre Demetrius who teaches here in Houston) move that fast and with a fair amount of aggression. The drawback is that in the roda, the game is the objective, so it becomes very difficult to move with that much speed and aggression without it actually becoming a fight--which is typically to be avoided at a roda. Bimba had 'banhos' after regular trainings where students could go all out and I believe some schools have a similar format. I'm not sure how common this is with groups outside of Brazil, though, where the majority of students involved are not looking to learn to fight. Thanks for the clarification.
  5. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I'll let you get to starting those other threads, we've pretty much hammered things out here. Good discussion, appreciate it.
  6. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter


    From here I'd like to get back to the OP ask: Okay, Bluedot, what methodology would you suggest for getting away from the roda mindset and into the fighting mindset in using capoeira techniques and what would the training look like?
  7. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    You're probably right there, again I've never done Capoeria, I can only speak from what I have observed, which is far from any actual experience.

    I think him being drained or not would probably depend on the level of experience he has with the movements in Capoeira. I do know that the more familiar you are with something your used to working with, the more likely you're going to relaxed while sparring and preforming the arts techniques. I will not deny that his aggressiveness probably comes from him training in MMA, as I've noticed (from what I seen) that Capoeria does not engage in contact sparring. Obviously if you want to use Capoeria in sparring, you need to spar with it which appears to be the case with those that I posted in the videos (they obviously cross train). As for the BJJ, well, it is MMA. Allot of fights do end up on the ground. I doubt Capoeria (like any other stand up striking art) would be effective on its own when in comes to grappling.

    Yes. Though don't get me wrong, the chances of successively pulling it off are extremely slim in compassion to landing a more basic technique such as the overhand right or Te tat (Thai round house kick). I would put that technique up there with successfully executing the more advanced kicks of an art such as Taekwon-do (which I used to do) with its flying kicks. Which are rarely pulled off, but when they are, then it can lead to a spectacular knock out that people will be talking about for years to come. As for me, well, I don't really care that much about such showman ship in my own sparring.

    But the point was, yes, the technique demonstrated in the video does have the power and speed behind it to result in a knockout, but that is different to what percentage that might occur in sparring.

    Yes, but its more than that. You have to build up neurological path ways with repetition. And some methods of doing things work better than others, such as in Muay Thai and Boxing; punching with your elbows pointing down at the floor works better than having your elbows flared out like a bird. As having your elbows flared out tires you out, telegraphs your punches, makes them harder to land and slower overall. But having your elbows facing the floor keeps you relaxed, makes your punches harder to read, is more accurate when it comes to hitting smaller targets (since its a straight in and out motion as opposed to swinging), and faster since the distance from A to B is shorter.

    That's technique. And you can only do it properly with repetition.

    Yes, hence what I said before. An experienced teacher will already have those pathways established through years of practice that he/she can pass on to their students. They already know from the process of elimination what works and what doesn't work. Good sparing partners will allow you to put into practice what you're currently building up or have already built up.

    I agree, based on my own experience with Muay Thai and Boxing. Sparring takes your training to a whole new level through leaps and bounds.

    What I should of mentioned, that in my last post I was referring to someone who cross trains in another martial art either equally or less in terms of commitment (time).
  8. BlueDot

    BlueDot New Member

    Well, for one thing I'd say that the roda has no need to be eliminated, and if anything it ought to be more emphasized on. Contact and grappling ought to be not only allowed, but encouraged. Generally speaking, the "game" aspect needs to change it's rating from "E" to "M" in terms of violence. Sparring gear also ought to be included, and the ginga should be taught with a more complete guard.

    More importantly, some capoeira vs non-capoeira sparring is definitely in order. The acrobatics and gymnastics definitely need to take a back seat if they aren't totally taken out of the equation. The kicks, knees, sweeps, and takedowns certainly need more attention than back hand springs and head stands.

    Aggressive techniques and unpredictability certainly could use some more attention than grace and artistic flair.

    Lots of people will claim that this is a departure from capoeira's nature, however it would in actuality be a return to it's more brutal and angry roots, refined and made applicable to modern combat.
  9. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Thanks for responding.

    But is this in addition to 'traditional,' ludic rodas or a replacement for it? In other words, are you advocating that all rodas must have the above mentioned qualifications? Or do you see this as additional training?

    What would a more complete guard for the ginga look like?

    Does this also mean that you find the ginga useful in a fight/sparring scenario?

    Sure, capoeiristas should spar people from other styles (a number already do this). The acrobatics aren't a prominent part of regional de Bimba or much of capoeira angola (though, admittedly, headstands are).

    I have found unpredictability (though, of course, within the techniques allowed in capoeira angola)to be at a premium in my history of training.

    But what do you know of capoeira's roots (a legitamate and non sarcastic question)? By every indication there was brutality, yes, but there has always been the ludic aspect--even in capoeira's proposed African ancestor, the ngolo. Whereas much of the (aerial) acrobatic flair and concentration on 'clean' aesthetics appears to be a part of growing participation in public, artistic/cultural performances as well as the shift promoted by the young men in Grupo Senzala in the 1960s (of which Nestor Capoeira was one), capoeira has always walked this fine line between learning martial techniques, being a public display of prowess and being something of a playful 'duel' amongst practitioners.

    It may sound like I'm antagonizing you and I'm not trying to do that. I do think that capoeira being more fight like would have to be a thing trained in addition to the more ludic form of the roda (and a number of groups do this). I also think that playing in a 'roda' where grappling is allowed is a way to open a capoeiristas eyes to what may happen, but that adding grappling to capoeira actually makes it MMA, (or an eclectic mix of martial arts, if you prefer) and not just capoeira--even if capoeira forms the person's base.

    Essentially, I'd not like to see the ludic roda disappear, even as I lament some of the things I see done in it.
  10. BlueDot

    BlueDot New Member

    I'd say it ought to be an addition to some classes and a replacement for others. Generally, it depends on the demographic. Do they want to learn a fun expressive game, or a martial art?

    Well, for starters, not throwing an arm back and exposing yourself. It's really not even much of an adjustment, and many people already have a more defensive ginga. Honestly, it wouldn't look very different at all.

    It depends on where this scenario takes place and my opponent's style. I tend to do it at some point in every fight, it's a nice little maneuver in short bursts and as an overall stance depending on the situation. Yes, I find it useful.

    Things like the queda de rins, macaco, S-dobrado and their ilk are also popular.

    I really like the essence of unpredictability, because nothing creates openings in a defense like somebody trying to figure out what on earth you're doing.

    Adding grappling to capoeira wouldn't really turn it into MMA if executed in a way that encourages escape from holds and a quick return to the flow.

    Also, who said that the more artistic side of capoeira has to disappear? Heck, at this point I don't think it honestly can due to it's heavy influence, even if a massive movement started to martialize it further were to occur.

    I'm well aware of Capoeira's history of both violence and artistry. It was practiced by malandros and by what most americans would refer to as carnies. People slashed at eachother with razors in underground competions and people showed off their skills and flexibility in big public rodas (depending on where it was legal [sometimes]).

    The spirit of rebellion and of artistic comraderie are both present, and always will be.
  11. daggers

    daggers Valued Member

    mma allows any stand up style, fighters take elements of muay thai, karate and boxing generally as they have been proven as effective stand up striking arts.
    im not a massive mma fan so i dont know the answer, has any moves/fighters ever used capoeira in mma? if not why not? surely some of the evasion tactics would be useful?
  12. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Got ya.

    On the arm throwing back thing: I do note that while beginners are taught this, I do see a number of capoeiristas adopt a more 'closed' ginga when their space is contested and things move in close. Now, this closed ginga guard is still not the same as a boxer's guard and could conceivably come under the criticism of those who practice MAs, but it is a different thing than the 'standard' ginga (also, do you feel that there is a 'standard' ginga? Gingas do differ a bit between angola and regional/contemporanea as well as within the styles, of course).

    Besides not being constant (though one could contest whether ginga should be constant in capoeira), do you find this use of ginga to feel/be different to your use of it in capoeira?

    Only speaking from my experience in angola, but not all of the above are considered acrobatics/floreios. Queda de rin is used to escape midlevel attacks by going to the floor in order to set up low kicks, rasteiras (sweeps), or tesoura (scissor leg takedown/throw). Macaco is rarely seen in angola, but s-dobrado, while considered by many a floreio, can be used to set up a chapeu de coro, changing angles as you go (this would certainly be difficult to pull off--or even see a need for--in a match).

    I like working on it, too. Do you have any ideas as to how you'd do unpredictability differently than currently done in capoeira, if at all?

    Oh, okay, I see where you're going.

    Thanks for responding. Are there any groups that you're aware of that incorporate what you would deem a reasonable approach to the martial side of capoeira?
  13. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    There've actually been a few fighters in recent history that have used capoeira to varying degrees of success, from getting cold cocked to amassing several victories. Of course, the number of fighters doing so is small but may be growing due to groups like Axe making it part of their mission.

    Historically, there have been capoeiristas in Vale Tudo matches, also with mixed results. Purportedly, Bimba's students won such matches (though I've read that a couple also lost), but a lot of other capoeiristas have lost in such matches. Perhaps the methodological approach to preparing to fight someone in Vale Tudo/MMA is as important as the delivery system one uses.
  14. Knoxy

    Knoxy Undisputed and Undefeated

    Anderson Silva did this:
    which kinda looked like capoeira footwork.
  15. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Yeah, that definitely looked like the backstep of ginga, complete with the corresponding arm motions typical of the ginga guard.
  16. daggers

    daggers Valued Member

    Sorry but to me that last clip looked like any other martial art springy dance out the way style , not saying that is what capoeira is! Just saying it didn't look like any style in particular
  17. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Oh come on!
    Sorry to jump in the conversation for no good reason, but Silva's movement in this video is screaming "Capoeira footwork" and even a guy like me, who has only seen capoeira in videos can hear it!
  18. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    That is Capoeira. But only a tiny little piece.

    DID he need to use the GINGA to pull something off like that? No he didn't.

    But it is the ginga ergo it was Capoeira.
  19. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I agree that the more familiar you are with particular movements, the more relaxed and efficient you are wperforming that particular movement. But I still think that there is a threshold. At the end of the day if you move more, you burn more energy and if you continue a energy draining activity fatigue will kick in. We could easily kick in other variables like adrenaline bursts leading to more muscle tension and therefore more energy drainage on an already energy innefficient stance, but then we open the door to millions of variables and something that flys way off the table of human cognition. :p

    I stand by saying no. This would definatly be a comparison for another thread, but I find that TKD's constant standing position is more favourable for executing high-fly techniques when compared to the ground position of Capoeira. Albeit I would never, ever, ever, ever advocate such flashy kicks, ever.

    I really don't mean to come off as demeaning with this reply, but you are just re-enforcing what I've already said.

    This reminds me of a thread that I wanted to start ages back. Which is can kata prepare you for sparring; my experience would force me to say us, but my logic says hell no.
  20. BlueDot

    BlueDot New Member

    I feel that a good ginga isn't a set movement, but a method of movement that simply screams capoeira.

    I'd say it varies just as much, though of course I'm much more expressive and open in capoeira due to the lack of a need for real defense.

    I can see queda de rins working, but s-dobrado into chapeu de coro wouldn't work against somebody who's goal is to fight you.

    Mixing hand, leg, and grapple techniques is a start. Also, telegraphing one move and executing another seems to be a great method of using capoeira in general. It's why meia lua de compasso works well in those videos, the oppenent is expecting a sweep or maybe a mid level kick, not a head kick.

    Interesting isn't it? I mean, there is already grappling in capoeira, it's just not very prominent.

    Besides axe, not really.

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