Capoeira Effectiveness

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by BlueDot, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    No, If you looked at the videos I posted, much of the knock outs were done using Capoeira techniques which I think proves its effectiveness right there. I've done Muay Thai for years and I can recognize when a technique is of different origins than to those found in Muay Thai.

    In terms of cross training with Muay Thai, I mentioned it because of its full contact sparring and its opportunity that it would present to a Capoeria practitioner to allow them to apply their techniques into sparring, and I mentioned Brazillian Ju Jitsu because of its emphasis on ground work.
  2. finite monkey

    finite monkey Thought Criminal

    Capiwotzit is the best art to learn if manicled hand and foot (calm down princess Achoo!)

    I have been discombobulated by a cartwheel kick that though did not make contact, I am very glad it did not
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Dem cartwheels is serious business son!

    Really though even training in grappling, the ability to cartwheel is a good thing to have, I've been hit by them unwarranted and they hurt.

    Professor mola does some nice work on making capo techniques more accessible and the headbut stuff seems quite nice from a vale tudo standpoint.
  4. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Princess Achoo????

    Did I miss something???

    Maybe I got hit by one.
  5. finite monkey

    finite monkey Thought Criminal

    She's an ex ninja
  6. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Oh, okay. I thought that maybe senility had hit me a bit early--still not convinced that isn't the case.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  7. BlueDot

    BlueDot New Member

    Howdy there.
    Having learned in a few different classes in my area and read through The Little Capoeira book (an excellent resource on the history, as well as both the martial and the artistic sides of capoeira) I can say with some confidence that Capoeira does actually have a good amount of usefulness, so long as you are smart enough to know that cartwheeling in a fight =/= good.
  8. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I figured since you are quite an experienced MAist, and have many years of Capoeira under your belt, that I wouldn't have to go into detail about the problems with ground game and ginga, as I'm sure you are more then aware of them.

    Well you'll have to bare with my utter lack of termonology, I haven't been in a Capoeira class for ages now. This is an analysis for ring fighting.

    First off, the constant movement is very wasteful with regards to energy and stamina, which is a must for ring fights.

    I personally think that it can lock the Capoeira fighter into which ever side they are currently in the ginga. Which can be detrimental when used by the opponent to lock them in the corner of the ring, ergo limiting movement. Movement (for generating momentum for kicks) being important for a lot of Capoeira techniques.

    Predictability. There are a lot of ques in the ginga that can give the opponent a good idea of what to attack to expect, coming from what direction, and how quick/powerful.

    A critique for the stance itself, is that is it lacks defence. Albeit this is a problem that strectes to Capoeira's core, where they prefer dodging and evading over force on force blocking or parying. I admit though, that this is a problem for me personally and may not be valid for others.

    Ground fighting:
    It's incredibly difficult to generate power from such a prone position. I've never really been able to generate a significant blow when in the ground position (teremonology missing). Albeit I have seen people generate some pretty nasty kicks from this stance, but then we go back to efficiency and endurance. It looks like it takes a significant amount of power to pull off these kicks, which can be draining for an extended fight. The alternative of kicking while standing seems much more reliable, logical, and efficient.

    This puts you at a huge disadvantage to ne waza fighters like BJJ.

    Although there are pretty nasty tricks that can be done on the ground (my favourite was the scissor leg trip), and it puts you out of range of the opponent, and probably takes you out of his familiar/comfort zones and ranges of fighting, I personally found it easy enough to avoid everything thrown from this stance, and deliver some nasty blows to people in these positions (axe/hammer kick being the most aggressive).

    For ring fighting, you wear gloves which may interfer with ground game, silly point I know.

    Personally I wish that my city had a platform for people of various MA backgrounds to spar against one another. I think that if you're serious about the fighting aspect of the MA, this should be mandatory.

    Actually I happen to hold both positions. The latter justifies the former.

    I would agree with you that some techniques could be applicable to ring fighting, the issue is that these techniques aren't exclusive to Capoeira, and you may learn easier or more efficient methods of executing these technique in other MAs. What I am arguing for is Capoeira in its raw form without any modifications. The average Joe may not have the capability to self modify his Capoeira, and so as I've said earlier, Capoeira has a poor bang for the buck with regards to SD (now inter disciplinary sparring), in that quite some modification and interpretation is needed to take Capoeira's raw form and make something useful out of it.

    Well it depends on your personal defition. I personally agree with all the aspects of SD that you mention, with the addition of some hand-to-hand MA training in the event of a physical confrontation. I don't always endorse it's use, but view it as mandatory.

    And for the record I think that Judo can be very useful for a lot of confrontations, at least in the country where I grew up where pushing, shoving, and grabbing is a staple of street fights.

    P.S. I currently have a cold so please pardon my mashed up thoughts.
  9. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I disagree that it shows Capoeira's effectiveness. What it shows is that Capoeira can be a nice supplement for a MT background. Or it shows that these fighters just had that much of an edge on their opponents. Or the guy just got lucky with his shot. It can mean a lot of things.

    Plus you must also agree that there is more to MA training then just learning how to perform techniques, you also learn power generation, precision, range tactics, height tactics, countering, feinting, parrying, fight tactics, reading movements, etc. etc. I'm not saying that Capoeira is lacking in all these departments (because it certainly isn't), but it would be difficult to isolate which MA, MT vs. Capoeira, is responsible for these traits and which one is merely a supplement.
  10. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    If possible may you expand on these useful traits?
  11. BlueDot

    BlueDot New Member

    Well, a good number of the kicks (the ones unique to capoeira, excluding the basics seen in just about every martial art such as the front push kick) are heavy, unpredictable, and often work well as an evasive counter.

    The hand strikes are lacking, although the emphasis on using an open palm is debatably a good thing. The use of elbow attacks is also encouraged.

    The ducks and other evasive maneuvers are good as you learn to keep your head guarded in case you fail to get out of trouble fast enough or are falling for a tricky attack.

    The takedowns and grappling aspect lack submission and pinning, however some of the maneuvers are very similar to pankration/wrestling and judo.

    The sweeps and ankle drags are of questionable usability, but the banda, when executed right, is a great counter against a mid to high kick.
  12. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Thanks for the compliment. I ask for more details for clarity's sake, as what you perceive as a problem with ginga or capoeira overall I may not and vice versa. This way, I can respond without making wrong assumptions about where you stand.

    No problem. I think that this will actually make it easier for those who view this thread and do no t train capoeira to understand what we are talking about.

    This I disagree with (not with the need for stamina in fighting, as that's obviously true). My experience is in capoeira angola and not regional/contemporanea--whose gingas can sometimes vary quite widely from angola gingas--but I don't any of them are meant to be energy drains. Newbies in capoeira don't typically cite fatigue as a problem. They usually have issues with coordination or the flexibility to make the shifts in level required in a good ginga.

    Now, I can see how someone could make that assessment of an angola ginga, which has a ton of additional movements, feints, breaks in movement and cadence, shifts in level and changes in direction, all meant to keep the other person from 'reading' your ginga or knowing from where you'll attack--it can all look overly complicated, and tiring. The thing is, those movements are meant to have a purpose and shouldn't be done without intention and should have some efficiency in terms of utility. In other words, I shouldn't just be dancing around, or using ginga robotically/automatically as a 'place holder' or anything else that I see happen constantly in angola and regional/contemporanea rodas--but that would be a topic for another thread.

    To get back on the topic at hand, ginga isn't typically as enrgetically draining for capoeiristas as it may seem. What tends to be most draining are the low and the acrobatic movments. This is why you will see capoeiristas who are tired go into ginga--they use it as their rest break. In angola, with all the emphasis of mid level to low movements, this can be even more obvious when one player pops up from the continuum of ever changing low movements to just start doing ginga for an extended period.

    Ultimately, I think that the ginga is definitely more involved than many other fighting stances (none of which are static), so I can concede that ginga may be more draining than an upright ready stance with gentle shifts in weight distribution. I think that ginga is not as draining to capoeiristas as a lot of people think, though.

    This I agree with and would say that this is where I could see many capoeiristas having trouble when sparring other arts. I would also say that the crosstep in the ginga could leave somone vulnerable as well. To do ginga against someone from another martial art means to be constantly shifting your spatial relationship with that person and the tools available for attack and defense. One could cross right over into the opponent's strong side if they're not aware of these relationships or have their ginga on autopilot because of being accustomed to 'mirroring' someone else doing ginga. By the way, not everyone 'mirrors' in capoeira and there are many who can deal with being offset from the other person.

    This, too, I tend to disagree with. The caveat being that my experience is in angola and perhaps there is more of a need for momentum coming out of ginga for the kicks in regional/contemporanea, but I'll leave that for someone who trains in those styles to answer. In angola, the power for the kicks, as I understand it, is generated from the feet (contact with the ground/earth), the hips and the torquing of the body--all of which can be done from a 'static' position. In fact, a number kicks in capoeira exist in other arts that use a more 'static' stance.

    There are a number of kicks that use gravity to aid in their effect, but these are not typically requiring the energy of the ginga to do them. Some require the energy of falling from a cartwheel, but this is something different from needing the momentum of the ginga itself.

    Well, yeah, a lot of people play this way, but I don't think the ginga is meant to give cues: it's actually supposed to lessen them--as much as possible, anyway. It may help if you give me an example of what cues you mean such that I can apprehend whether I see that a fault of the ginga itself or something poor in the execution, like a boxer dropping his guard when throwing a punch.

    Okay, here I'm not clear what you're getting at. I'm guessing you mean the guard? Or perhaps the footwork or the weight distribution? Please clarify what the holes in the defense are.

    Oh, there is a lot of force that can be generated from a number of those ground strikes. Still, I agree with you that low movements in general are much more challenging and draining.

    :)Oh, I would think that, if anything, capoeira not being a grappling art would put it at a disadvantage against BJJ.

    Typically, if a person is going for you from this position, you shouldn't be able to bring down an axe kick. I liken this to elbow defense cited by TMA people as an option against a grappler. But I do get what you mean as I do see people start tesoura (scissor leg takedown) too far away from the other person or think they've escaped an attack with a negativa (an escape where you laterally lean the body out of the path of the attack, when they've, in doing so, managed to expose their sides/midsection by failing to consider other angles of attack and truly moving out the line of attack. I see this as a fault of application as opposed to structure but I concede that it does happen far more often than I'd like to see.

    I don't find this point to be silly. With the use of low movements that place the hands on the floor, gloves could conceivably become an issue. Most of the MMA gloves I've seen, though, don't appear as though they'd cause a problem.

    I wish Houston did, too. Or maybe it does and I just haven't looked hard enough. Admittedly, as I'm coming near the end of my course work for this PhD, my time is coming at a premium. Still, I am beginning the search for sparring partners--once in a blue moon is still better than never. If you ever find yourself in Houston, Lad, you have a standing invitation to a couple of friendly rounds.

    Got ya.

    This I agree with and find that it appears to agree with Bluedot's original post and is a rather different thing than your post saying that it was useless (or perhaps my reading comprehension on the first post was wrong?)

    I wish it were a standard part of MA training.

    I certainly don't slag off Judo for usefulness. I think there's a reason why 'Do Judo' is the standard MAP answer to newbies looking for an MA to train.

    On the contrary, I found this post to be quite clear. Thanks for clarifying.
  13. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    There are a fair number of hand attacks, to be sure--more than people who don't train capoeira realize, but they definitely don't seem to get a lot of attention in training.

    I'm curious as to what makes you question the usability of sweeps.
  14. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Fair enough. I just hate writing essays on this forum (which happens way more then I’d like it too!).

    Ok so you’re an angola guy. The club where I trained was a hybrid of angola and regional. During roda we’d start with angola, then move onto regional, and then up the tempo, we’d then sometimes end again with angola sort of as a cool down. I personally sat the angola periods out because they weren’t my cup of tea. What I do remember of the angola sessions, were that there was considerably more use of the ground and less of the ginga. And to me it looked like a moving form of chess more than anything else.

    We once had a whole bunch of mestres from USA and Brazil give a workshop, some being angola “specialists”. What was cool was that I got to meet Mestre Marcelo Pereira, which was cool because Eddy Gordo was actually the reason why I wanted to take Capoeira in the first place.

    Well this is debate worthy. In a typical Capoeira roda, you only spar for about 30 seconds to a minute before you are essentially kicked out of the roda by the band, you then have to sit and wait your turn again. This isn’t too draining even if you were giving your 100%. However with kickboxing rules where rounds last for 3 minutes with a 1 minute break between rounds and however many rounds per a fight, I imagine that the ginga can take its toll and be quite detrimental to the fighters stamina.

    Damn I knew I was forgetting something.

    Although I don't enjoy going against my own words, I've seen the ginga being used to actually control and corner an opponent. It's all about how aggressive and confident you can be. But I know that this particular event had more to do with the individuals involved than a difference in styles.

    This is definitely more applicable to regional than angola, at least from my experiences.

    Meia-lua de Compasso: This can be done quickly and effectively, but also give a cue when the person ducks their head down or reaches for the floor. This gives 3 options off the top of my head; 1.) Move in quickly to anywhere behind the heel (calf, back of the knee, etc.) this may hurt a little but would be drastically lower than if hit by the heel. Of course in this position you have a checkmate 2.) move back. Checkmate. 3.) Learn his cue well enough to time an attack so that he never even reaches the point of kicking.

    Meia-lua de frente: This has a lot of cues. To pull it off you need to take a deep step forward, and you need to bring your body down so that you can spring up to execute the kick. Both of which are red flags to those that pay attention and give a lot of indication of what to expect.

    The goal of the ginga is meant to be as unpredictable as possible, but to be frankly honest most people that practice Capoeira seem to be more interested in the acrobatics and the culture (nothing wrong with this) and are less keen on the fight dynamics, myself being a nit-picker of sorts in this area.

    (Saddly I wish I could say that I had a spontaneous burst of memory, but sadly I used the internet)

    Do you have a background in other MA’s or only Capoeira? Because this may be a bit difficult for me to explain completely to someone with only a Capoeira background, so if yes bear with me on this.

    In Muay Thai, TKD, boxing, Karate, Wing Chun, etc. etc. you are taught very precisely how to hold up a proper guard. Your hands have to be in positions that both guard you head, face, ribs, and mid torso, while also being in strategic positions for attacking. If you picture the positioning of a boxers hands and compare that to the positioning of a Capoeira players hands, you notice that a.) the boxer has both hands in front of him contrary to the Capoeirista’s, where one lays to his side, and the other lays horizontally across his face and b.) that the boxers hands are held somewhere between tension (resisting blows) and relaxation (delivering blows), where the Capoeirista has a similar mixture, but is under constant motion giving varying periods of protection.

    a. To me indicates a poor overall defence. It is highly penetrable to attacks to the ribs and torso on one side, and the temples to the other (when viewed statically). Throughout the entire ginga, save the cross step of some individuals, the solar plexus is totally exposed.
    b. These are cues of penetrability for a number of attacks, and from my experience, also mean that the arms aren’t held with enough tension that I could very easily break through (albeit that newbies where the only ones slow enough that I could do it on). We were taught that the arm should be held with enough tension to serve as a buffer, but it was far from the common practice in the club itself.

    Ahh-hem... That too. :bang:

    Something I've taken advantage of a lot in the roda.

    MMA gloves would be an exception indeed. But some kickboxing venues are allowing for a more liberal approach to hand wear, which would allow the use of MMA gloves. The use of boxing gloves in kickboxing seems to be something that's fading out as the norm, albeit this progression is slow.

    I've heard of a few groups that have access to facilities, but there is no organization or leading group, and seems to just be a few chaps getting together and fighting. Way too Fight Club for me.

    Likewise, if you're in the Netherlands.

    I was probably being vague and didn’t want to get into too much detail, fuzzy mind with all the paracetamol.

    We stand in agreement.

    That’s good news, thought I was posting nonsense. :p
  15. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Will respond to the post later tonight, Lad, though I think we pretty much stand in agreement. Gotta go run errands.
  16. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Heavy also means a leading up phase where cues are given on what to expect. Plus kicks themselves have questionable applications in any fight (coming from a TKD guy).

    Unpredictable isn't always true, and may not be applicable to every opponent. Plus I find that they can be quite preditable when closely observing the ginga's sway. But we can debate this all we want to be honest.

    Evasive counter: yes and no. It would be very true for Capoeira vs. Capoeira. But I just can't see someone pulling off a Meia-lua de Comprasso on a boxer, or someone using a TKD roundhouse, you just don´t have the room, time, or distance.

    My Capoeira training was also quite thin on hand techniques, which I was happy about, the kicks where just freaking fun to learn!!

    But the palm stricking is indeed debatable. On one hand if not performed correctly a punch can damage the hand, and hinder a lot of Capoeira´s ground game, and on the other, the palm can also do quite a bit of damage to the hands if performed poorly.

    Kicking is a very dangerous act. And Capoeira has based itself predominantly on kicking, which I would say is very bad for a ring match.

    Agreed. Although I still don´t like the idea of going to the ground, Capoeira does stress proper hand positioning when evading (although I find it lacking in the ginga). Also, it teaches you to maintain eye contact!! (something I don't find 100% relevant)

    My issue is that Capoeira only takes you to the takedown, but when you're on the ground, Capoeira has nothing to offer you.

    Really? The sweeps and ankle drags were actually somehting that I found good in Capoeira. :S
  17. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Cool. I've never met Mestre Marcelo, but who even knows how many hours I'd spent playing Tekken as Eddy years ago.

    True enough. I didn't think about the roda scenario in regional/contemporanea games. I have witnessed a handful of games in my years that have lasted 2-3 minutes, but that has been rare. Perhaps Rand or another regionalista can comment on the length of the games and its relevance to transitioning to ring matches.

    In angola rodas, the games usually go from 3-5 minutes and sometimes longer than that. Of course, the pace is typically slower and more relaxed, unless the game is 'hot' (meaning a challenging, spirited and aggressive game). The pace is more up and down, though, with fast moments followed by slower paced periods of interaction.

    I suppose that what I'm attempting to say in the rambling above is that time could be a factor for someone transitioning to the fight game. I do think, though, that this kind of conditioning would have to happen for anyone. It would be interesting to just see two regionalistas play at the pace for that long to see the effect. What I imagine is that the pace would begin to shift and follow an on again off again pattern--this is what I have seen in the longer regional games I've witnessed.

    With this kick (often called Rabo da Arraia in angola circles), the ducking down has to be a purposeful movement in its own right and not just the initiation of a kick that you're doing 'just because.' For instance, the ducking down may be the escape from an opponent's high line attack with the kick itself being a counterattack.

    Alternatively, one could go low as the feint for some other type of attack, such as boca de calcas (takedown by pulling the ankles/cuff of the trousers), cabecada (headbutt) or some other low line attack in order to incite the opponent to move into the direction where one intends to give the kick.

    Throwing meia lua de compasso out of the blue without a setup is inviting all sorts of potential trouble, including the things you outline above--but I do see lots of people do it. Heck, I've been guilty of it myself when I've gotten lazy.

    Okay, in our group, we launch Meia Lua de Frente (MLF, an inside swinging crescent kick, for those unfamiliar with the terminology) from wherever we're at, without the buildup step. That step would just invite a rasteira (sweep) in many of the rodas I've been a part of. I have seen it fairly often in contemporanea and I've assumed that the step in and drop down may have come from those games played in contemporanea where kicks are rapidly exchanged without pause--such a drop and deliver method would work well there. But that is just my assumption. Again, I defer to someone who actually trains regional/contemporanea.

    Oh, and in angola this kick is rarely ever done above waist height. Usually one goes for the head with this kick when the other person has shifted low or to the floor.

    Can't argue with you here, as the flash is what draws a lot of people to capoeira. But I'll shy away from this one as it gets too close to the 'people do it for varying reasons' argument.

    I've only ever trained in capoeira angola, but grew up watching boxing, wrestling and have friends (including some members of my capoeira group) that have practiced other martial arts. That and seven years on MAP has me familiar with a plethora of concepts across various MAs.

    With the guard in ginga, the arms have to shift to be prepared for high or low level attacks (though, admittedly, the high line doesn't always get challenged as much as it might in, say, boxing). The arms also have to be ready to support the body at a moment's notice when one shifts to ground or inverted movements. As such, the arms do tend to shift a lot, giving way to more potential openings. I think that the conventional wisdom is that the tradeoff should involve one having a better understanding of what openings they present to the opponent and when and seeking to manage that.

    One particular reason that capoeiristas mirror each other's ginga is so that one doesn't present the unguarded area to the other player. If I step back on my left foot with my left arm across my chest and my right at my side the other player does the same, we are no longer mirroring each other and I present my right side (torso) as a target for his left martelo (roundhouse kick). Mirroring is one way to manage openings but, of course mirroring as a habit has its own set of problems. A boxer need only protect the high line, so his guard is what it is. Add in kicks and the guard has to change. Add in grappling and it has to change more (as does the stance). In capoeira, the guard is a way to manage the ever changing openings presented by the motion of the ginga and other movements.

    And, of course, capoeira is heavily biased towards evasion instead of blocking.

    Well, if they leave the opening, it's their fault.

    Always interesting to watch the evolution of competitive fighting.

    Yep, that sounds like a recipe for chaos.

    I appreciate that.

    Yeah, I think we do on most of this.

    Nope. Quite clear.
  18. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    Or vice versa, and yes, the videos do prove that there are techniques in Capoeira that do work.

    The fighters in the videos that I posted did display that they had an overall better sense of balance, weight distribution, speed and general timing than their opponents. Considering the agileness and maneuverability generally found in Caporeia, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a major contributing factor.

    KO's are generally hard to achieve in sparring (depending on the experience and conditioning of the fighters) regardless of what art you do. The techniques in Caporeia have been proven to have enough mass and speed behind them to result in a knock out.


    Power, speed, precision are elements found in a technique. The use of range and height is the result of the execution of a technique. Countering, feinting and parrying are techniques of their own. Reading movements is a psychological/cognitive process.

    When one cross trains, usually the more dominate martial art style is going to be what the practitioner is most familiar/experienced with. Everything else is usually complementary. Unless you're experienced with either Muay Thai or Capoeira, then yes, you are going to have difficulty identifying which is which. I know Muay Thai, I have been doing Muay Thai for the last few years, so when watching the videos I posted I can tell that the practitioners in the videos are prominently Capoeira based considering we (myself and others that do Muay Thai) don't move around as practitioners of Capoeira do, nor set up or execute kicks as they do.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  19. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Well here we have to boil down to averages. These guys certainly weren't trained by your average run of the mill Capoeira class. Which is relevent to the development of their agilness and maneuverability, and I'll also add attacking strength. I have had quite a bit of experience with Capoeira in the past, and all I can say is that very few (in fact none) of the Capoeiristas, mestres included, could move like these guys.

    Furthermore, it's important to say that for the guy in the last clip, he was moving too much, had he a better opponent, or just been less lucky, I'd imagine him being totally drained after a few more rounds. I'll admit I'm amazed at his aggressiveness, he has some whiched meia-lua de comprasso's.

    Alsdo I have noticed is that BJJ (that's just an assumption) seems to be winning most of these fights and not the Capoeira.

    So what? Can you ever imagine someone pulling that technique off in a fight?

    So what? Kicks and punches are nothing more then the biophysical response to biochemicals and neurological signalling.

    These traits can be learned and practiced just like any other, and it takes a good instructor, good teaching methodologies, and good sparring partners to continuely develop and improve these traits.

    I'm saying that your average MT class develops these traits to a much higher degree than Capoeira, I would go a step further and say that Capoeira doesn't develop some of these traits to a satisfiable degree either. I've done both so I have comparable references.

    This would be a topic for another thread to be frankly honest. We can probably debate this all we want, but neither of us will budge from our posistions and it would be pointless IMHO.
  20. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    My apologies for stepping in on a debate between you and Hapuka, but I felt compelled to ask if you really think that none of the mestres or students in capoeira could move like the ones in the videos posted? What did you see that was so different in terms of their capoeira? I ask because the only difference I saw between them and capoeira mestres and long term good students I've witnessed was in the transitions to grappling--which would come from their cross training. In terms of the use of capoeira, I didn't see any differences, so could you point it out?

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