Can western fencing beat kali ?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by JKD guy, Aug 11, 2004.

  1. JKD guy

    JKD guy New Member

    I have read that some (if not many) Filipino martial arts are part European "cut and thrust" fencing. For example, I have read that kalis illustrissimo is "40% Spanish fencing". Also, I once heard of a knife-fighting tournament in the U.S., where people from all knife arts could compete. The kali/arnis/escrima guys did not win. A teacher who did western fencing did win. Also, in the Filipines, I have heard that thrusts are illegal (in competition). I think maybe because, they are so effective.

    My question is, is western fencing superior to kali/arnis/escrima ?
     
  2. Gyaku

    Gyaku Valued Member

    Wow, now this is an interesting discussion! JKD guy, good post, I'll be giving it some thought!
     
  3. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Can western fencing beat kali?

    Most likely.

    Can kali beat western fencing?

    Most likely.

    Sounds plausible, what sort of protection is used to stop these matches from being fatal? Remember that there's a large difference between a slash vest, and a stab vest.
     
  4. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    What are the rules of engagement? Guerilla tactics allowed? what if both weapons are lost, Does western fencing teach emptyhands, grappling etc?

    The question you bring is a loaded one to a forum practiced by FMA players.

    I have beaten 3 western fencers and I am a Kali practitioner. Rules? By their rules originally I was eaten up with thrust ...at first. Learned their game, understood the rules and deafeted them after understanding how the rules brought out my weaknesses. DOes that mean that I beat "western fencers? NO I beat 3 guys at a game. That's it. If survivla tactics were allowed , who knows. I know we teach it, I know they didn't and that's where they agreed that they were limited to weapons playing and that's where it ended.

    BTW- out of coincidence, It was Kalis Illustrisomo footwork with KDL that helped me adjust to their game.
     
  5. NeilX66

    NeilX66 Valued Member

    Thrusts were taken out of the competition / sport side due to a weakness in the WEKAF style armour, a thin stick ( or battered helmet) may allow a head height thrust to hit the fighter, and a hard thrust to the chest can skid off the armour up and under the neck of the helmet into the throat ( I've seen this one happen, normally beginners getting carried away and forgeting the rules ), so its a safety issue more than anything.

    On your other point, it would largely depend on weapons being used, are the arnisadors using sticks, knife, sword etc, are the fencers using sport foils, epee, sabre or real rapiers etc, rule based or real combat ??? Its a very open question, I have never studied fencing, or western sword combat, so I don't know if they use strikes to the weapon arm / hand, as we do in the FMA, but from what I've read about spanish / italian / english swordplay I would be very surprised if the had missed it out, so you end up with two guys, both armed with big long sharp pointy things trying there best to kill each other, in a high speed melee situation like that would many of us even be able to tell the FMAer from the fencer ?? ( Block, Parry, evade, thrust, slash probably much the same all over the world )

    Neil
     
  6. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Yep. That happened in the first WEKAF tournament I ever attended. (In fact, they may have banned them after that. I'm not sure.) Bad end to the day for my classmate, that was.


    Stuart
     
  7. krys

    krys Valued Member

    Many filipino martial arts have some fencing influence, filipinos learned from the spaniards and integrated this new knowledge into their practices to make their martial arts even more effective..... but this comes from ancient MARTIAL fencing, not the modern western fencing tournament thing taught nowadays... Most european martial fencing has been lost while filipinos kept their martial heritage .....
     
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I've trained in both. Granted, I've only done fencing for about a year cumulative. Versus about 8 years in FMA.

    In college, I joined the fencing club briefly. And while I doubt those guys were particularly good fencers, I more than held my own doing nothing more than FMA with a sabre. (Of course, I largely ignored prohibitions on fencing footwork, etc.)

    More recently, I joined a proper fencing class. And, under fencing rules, I generally get schooled. Often by fellow students.


    Stuart
     
  9. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    Well said krys,
    That's what limited the guys of western fencing that I sparred with, in foil fencing it was all about the thrust , most FMA strikes use the power slash because of the conditioning of training with impact weapons such as the stick, seldome is the thrust employed often in comparisson to the slash or hack when training with sticks, But when training with swords the thrust is employed but the slash or hacks were still predominant in my personal observations. Quite different with the daga or knife but that goes into shorter weapons training. I studied fencing simply to understand the nature of thrusts with longer weapons and it's use as this was lacking in majority of use with the FMA I was in , AGAIN not missing but lacking in terms of training where I wanted to deal with it more often because it was a weakness that I encountered. BUT once again as Krys pointed out it was a weapons game, strip them of weapons (the fencers) and the Martial emptyhands of FMA still applied in my case to none of theirs in their training.
     
  10. stumpy

    stumpy Valued Member

    I've done loads of fencing and no kali.
    I have found that I am having to work to change the way in which I spar because fencing is very much straight backwards and forwards and doesn't give much in the way of side to side movement.
    Depends on the weapon and whose rules apply I guess. Epee and Sabre use a lot of attacks to the sword arm, so that may be an advantage, there again, depending on the rules used they may not be applicable points. Foil only uses the body as the target area and it is therefore quite legit (though frowned upon) to use the sword arm to parry. It takes an effort for someon who is used to attacking the sword arm to concentrate on the smaller target area.
    Modern fencing is very much dictated by the properties of the weapons and the electronic scoring equipment. Flick hits have replaced traditional type fencing in competitions. I don't think it would ever be a fair competition by either parties rules.
     
  11. teacher

    teacher Valued Member

    Bayani got the best answer in my opinion. Both would win.
    Western sport fencing is a bit too formalised to be considered a viable martial art as most fencers start with the foil, the least realistic of the three main types of modern sports sword.
    In the Western forum you will find people looking at reviving or recreating more martial Western arts. There are European manuscripts illustrating disarms that are in a lot of FMA.
     
  12. krys

    krys Valued Member

    I've actually fought once against a (modern western) fencing instructor a few years ago, after I got in close range it was over, I took him right down and submited him.....
     
  13. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Well - as a qualified instructor in both I'm real confused now. I don't know whether to stab myself or abaniko myself to death :D
     
  14. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Ah-Ha!

    Hi Dave,

    >Well - as a qualified instructor in both I'm real confused now. I don't know whether to stab myself or abaniko myself to death<

    I think I can help here. Utilising the Espada Y daga (or more accurately Baston/Olisi/Yantok Y daga) element within the FMA, you stab yourself with the knife, and abaniko yourself with the stick!

    Ta-da! Problem solved ;-)

    Bill
     
  15. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Marvellous! Problem solved!
     
  16. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    I heard that the FMA kali was designed to beat European Fencing since they were fighting off the Spanish invaders.
     
  17. moe389

    moe389 Valued Member

    combat proven

    Im not sure about the spanish but it worked against japan.
     
  18. JKD guy

    JKD guy New Member

    Fencing

    All I know is, Spanish/Italian "cut and thrust" fencing was banned at some point in Europe. Anything banned in Europe is good enough for me ! I want in !! :) Where do I sign up ?

    [if you read about kalis illustrissimo, I think that might be the closest thing to what the Spaniards did in 1650. They seemed to like to "end the fight in one move", which still seems to be the kalis illus. way, and they avoid medio and go for lungo or corto. Sounds like Spanish cut and thrust to me).

    I think actually, what probably happened was, the Spanish and the Filipinos influenced each other, more or less. From what I have read, the Spanish would practice "esgrima" (sword fighting) in the local town, but then come back with indigenous stuff they had witnessed from the locals. But no doubt, the Filipinos also were influenced by "esgrima".
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2004
  19. Bolo Bro

    Bolo Bro New Member

    Although Western fencing is now a sport rather than a combative system, there are still lessons to be learned from it that can benefit weapons practitioners in general. Western fencers are taught to judge distance, timing, and accuracy as well as technique. Not all eastern weapons folks are taught these concepts. This is because, like BJJ, Kickboxing, Kendo and Muay Thai practitioners, Western fencers are expected to spar the techniques that they learn, while some martial artists who learn stick, sword, staff, spear, tonfa, nunchaku, kama, etc, etc, never intend to use their techniques against an opponent. Nothing wrong with this- you don’t need to intend to hurt someone to gain physical and spiritual benefits from weapons training

    Going back to the original question- is Western fencing superior to Filipino weapons systems? One thing to consider is the actual education and training of the individuals who are facing each other. I’ve found that if you pit a reasonably experienced fencer (at least one season) against a FMA student who has done only drill training, then the fencer’s knowledge of distance and timing will prevail, regardless of the simplicity of the technique used. You can’t underestimate the importance of these two aspects of combat, and although sport fencing has distilled many of its techniques into movements that are not really practical with a weapon (ex- the coupe, a whipping attack that bends a soft foil blade over to strike with the tip) they most certainly train distance and timing, as well as accuracy and aggressiveness.

    However, once you throw in an experienced escrimador/kalista, a combatant who has faced opponents and has worked the same aspects of combat, then what you have is a nice fight. I’ve noted that the unarmed hand and angular footwork and aggressive infighting can unsettle a fencer who is used to the in-line footwork of the strip, but they adapt to it, just as a stickfighter adapts to the quick thrusts, disengages, and the explosive lunges, ballestras and fleches of fencing (excuse my spelling!)

    Another thing to consider are the rules of engagement, as Bayani stated earlier. I’ve faced saber fencers in free sparring, using a saber with kali movements, with no strip and no limit to techniques and have dominated, especially when light blows were disregarded. Obviously, a fencer will not excel in a situation in which fencing rules are not strictly followed. On the strip, however, where the lightest touches counted, and the techniques are limited to the rules of fencing (ex- no off-hand strikes or punyos) then the same saber fencers fared much better. I’ve also seen a classical fencer win an FMA knife tournament against FMA students. He used nothing but a simple parry/counter strategy while paying close attention to his distance and timing!

    Finally, it’s important to remember that modern fencing is a sport, the same way that Kendo and Judo is a sport. They are derived from combative arts like Kenjitsu and Jujitsu, but they have been distilled to sporting forms. Anyone who has studied classical and historical fencing after trying modern sport fencing will see that the older fencing forms have attacks, parries and footwork patterns that are no longer used in modern fencing. This is because modern fencing weapons have become so light and fast that they have made some techniques impractical. However, at the heart of the sport, the aspects of combat- timing, distance, deception, aggressiveness, reading your opponent, reaction time, etc- are still trained and maintained, as they should be by any student who intends to fight with a weapon, including the Filipino Martial Artist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2004
  20. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    who would win? the better fighter would!


    not at all. olisistrisimo is pure fma.

    fma works because it adapts to what is in front of it. sure the arnisadors studied fencing to beat it. but the contras are 100% fma.


    p.s. i've done saber fencing (hungarian school) and was a member of our national team at a point in time. i have also consistently sparred and learned with some ilustrisimo boys. i do kdl and kali.
     

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