Calling all science folk!

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Mangosteen, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I'm interested in doing a PhD in biological sciences (specifically human health related) but I have some concerns.

    I have two main concerns:
    1. Writing a proposal
    2. Getting funding

    I have a research topic I'm interested, I've done a lot of background reading and I know my idea is both a gap in research, an area of current interest and feasible. I've also found a PhD scheme (3+1) that gels perfectly with the research topic as well as a number of secondary bodies that may well be interested in funding/supporting.

    1. Writing a proposal

    I don't even know where to begin or how to even structure it. Any advice on this would be appreciated. My girlfriend has given me some advice but she does sociology so i don't know how applicable her advice is.
    I've tried contacting the people in the departments of the PhD scheme I'm looking at for advice but so far - nada. I'm going to get in contact with my old lecturers because they've been super helpful to other students. I know I probably need someone to refer me but don't know how this works either!

    2. Getting funding

    I'm concerned I'm not the best candidate to go forward for this particular scheme and would like to make my application stronger.
    I graduated with a 2.2 and little research experience (and a non relevant dissertation) which i realise makes me unappealing as a candidate.
    I'd like to strengthen my application (and jobs prospects) by doing a bioinformatics masters but i don't know if this is really a good idea?

    If you were able to get through that wall of text, I'd like to hear your own experiences in academia and whether its actually worth pursuing - Thanks!
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I look at a PhD as being something to get if, 1) you really want it, and 2) you need it for the role you want to do post-academia. I know a lot of people who progressed to doctoral level, and I think it had real terms value for only a couple of them (i.e. it improved their career prospects). Most of them have said they did it because they wanted to; one or two of them even regret it. My advice to you is to get your master's and re-evaluate your options after that. It proved the better choice for me in the long run (rather than going for a PhD) in terms of building experience and commanding a better salary.
     
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    OK, so, obviously the advice I give below varies massively depending on the field and the person reading the application.

    What are you saying when contacting the academics? If it's 'please talk to me about this DTC', then yeah, that's not their job and they wont respond. If it's 'I'm really interesting in conducting research in <their field>, particularly investigating <your niche>, and was wondering if you could spare 10 minutes for a Skype call about it.' then you might be aiming too high up the totem pole. Target early stage researchers, particularly ones that don't seem to have many PhD students yet.

    There's lots of stuff online about writing a research proposal online. No one is going to give you personal help with writing it. Welcome to research, where everything has to be done just so and no one is willing to tell you what just so looks like.

    The proposal can be either really important, or not important at all. I agonised over mine and it was never even read.

    You're going to really struggle with a 2:2. You'd struggle to get a place anywhere good with a 2:1. My advice - do the MSc at the uni you want to do the PhD. The MSc project will let you find out if research is what you want to do and if you are actually any good at research. It also gives you an academic supervisor you can impress -- this is what I did and I can give you a transcript of my entire PhD application process:

    Literally that was it. If I'd done it from the outside, there would have been interview panels and funding committee meetings and drama. But I was the devil they knew so it was super simple (Note: My group was also seriously flush with funding, so that probably helped, but either way, having an academic willing to go to bat for you will simplify everything).

    The MSc also gives you the opportunity to wipe out any concerns they might have about the 2:2.

    Be warned Bioinformatics is some fairly heavy duty maths and computation stuff. Lots of MSc students from biology get their asses kicked by the math.

    As for PhD's generally, some people (like me) love it, some people hate every last second of it. It can be incredibly lonely and depending on your supervisors, it can be torture.
     
  4. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    No don't!
     
  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Thanks Holy
    That was incredibly helpful. Really, thank you so much.

    My contacting was probably too high up in the totem.

    ^Pretty much my experience of it in general.

    I'll give some online modules of bioinformatics and open source tools a shot before i sink my money into a masters!
     
  6. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I understand you faced what about 50% of PhD face - the utter craziness of it.
    Could you elaborate on your experience (in private if you wish)
     
  7. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Honestly, 2.2 GPA is really, really weak. I'm not sure what programs are like overseas, but my guess is you'll have a high degree of difficulty getting into a PhD program with that and without much research experience. An MSc can definitely address that and, if you do well, even a lower tier school should be able to propel you to where-ever. Number one predictor for how well you'll do in a PhD program is your research experience - folks that have it tend to swim, those that don't, well, enough said. Gaining research experience can be as simple as getting an internship - for my field there are job boards like the TAMU wildlife jobs, Evojobs, etc. Not sure what is available in your field. On a personal level, while you're actually performing the mind numbing task of research, ask yourself if it's really something you wake up wanting to do in the morning. Not just if the field interests you or if you like reading about research, but if pipetting for fourteen hours straight is your jam.

    Yeah, I mean, honestly I had a pretty good experience. My supervisor was great and not insane, my classes weren't overwhelming, I just really, really, really don't enjoy doing research. The fact is also that job prospects are at an all time low for biology folks and my field was not one with enormous employment options - basically academia or bust. The adjunct system over here in the US means that a lot of academics are actually living below the poverty line, and I need money for bonsai yo.

    Also, 100% of PhDs face craziness, it's just kind of built in to the experience. One of my advisors said don't expect it to get you a job, just do it for the experience, so I mean, that's where we're at now with this whole thing. If the idea of working your butt off for a meager salary and uncertain job prospects is appealing, go to! People do crazier things like sign on board a transatlantic viking cruise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Yup. pretty much (GPA isn't directly translatable in the UK but its still pretty weak)
    I've looked into internships and the main issue comes down to - i got on the property ladder early which is great but means i can't take an unpaid internship. There's even a community health internship on the population i want to study but I need those dollar dollar bills yo!

    That really is something to consider. My current job is mindlessly repetitive and I'm not a fan of that but id feel a heck of a lot better about it if i knew there was another element to it.

    wow thats really bad. theres a zero-contract thing that a lot of unis up north are pushing (basically they pay you when you work and they decide when you work)
    I also do like money/eating so probably a good thing to consider
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I regularly work with students in the uk who have low class degrees but who are doing PHDs. Most often they enter the phd via round about roots e.g. take time out in employment, then apply, or by doing a post graduate qualification first.

    Off coarse you need to be bright to do a PHD but that is not the most important thing. You also need to work hard. A PHD is a lot of work. Few people do a phd in the three years minimum. So you have got to work hard for a long time. Particualy if you enter by way of taking a post grad.

    I would say that the most important thing about getting a PHD is that you must really want to get one. You will need something to motivate yourself through the slog.

    As for strategies for applications - your old university careers center may give you advice, so might your old lectures, any friends on post grads.

    You need to work on your lift pitch (elevator pitch to our colonial cousins). No one is going to give you a slot after a 3 second pitch, but you need to be clear about what you want to do and why you want to do it. so a 3 secound pitch and 1.5 page pitch are tools to for you to clarify things in your mind.

    As for door stepping. Some lectures are completely unhelpful individuals. Some are friendly, Some feel that they are obliged to speak to any genuine applicants. Others do not. If you persevere you will likely find someone who will talk to you. Maybe via skype maybe in person. Just do your homework before you talk to them so that they know that you are putting the effort in and are not a time waster.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  10. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Thank you for your advice tom.
    I think at this point, not long after i've finished uni, I'm probably not ready to go back into academia. Certainly not mature enough.
    There are a few things I feel like i need to do before hand to really see if I'm not wasting my own time:

    1. Get my personal and financial life sorted out before I even consider applying to lessen the blow of being a broke student again (even for the time I'm doing the masters).
    2. Learn a statistical programming language and see how i cope with the computational elements
    3. Take a long holiday in which i intern in a community health project abroad. This'll tell me if I'm ready for the stressful field research.
    4. If all the above pan out then get onto the masters at the university I'm considering doing a PhD on.
    5. Get my foot in the door with research projects and lecturers then actually probe into PhD stuff.
     
  11. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Talk to some profs in your field, explain your situation, ask them if you can come do anything for them on weekends to gain experience.
     
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Many funding bodies require students to have a minimum of a 2.1 or a Merit at Masters level.

    Some people will go into industry, save a load of money and self fund their way through their PhD, but those people are a small minority (I'm struggling to think of one that I actually know).
    As they say, 'Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration' and in a PhD, if your supervisor is a genius, then you just need to worry about perspiring.
     
  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Indeed. The conditions are a 2.1 minimum or a 2.2 and a masters for everything i've seen.

    They only people I know who have done PhDs when they we're older were those who we're funded by their jobs or had a lot of relevant industry experience.
     
  14. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Most of what I would say has already been said.

    There is the general attitude that getting a Masters bumps up your undergrad degree by one, so that is something to consider.

    If you have an interesting proposal, the right level of passion and contact the right person you might get lucky and get someone to take you without the MSc. I worked for a chap who said that he would rather have a passionate 2.2 student than a 1st class Honours student who'd sailed through their undergrad course with no stress.

    As has been said, you have to have enough interest to stick with the topic with very little encouragement for 4 years and, given the state of funding in Academia, don't count on the PhD to get you a job.
     
  15. Vicarious

    Vicarious Valued Member

    So as someone who has a PhD in the Biological Sciences (Microbiology), with a 2:2 undergraduate degree (Biochemistry), and who know works as a Postdoc, I can say that the advice from holyheadjch is spot on.

    I went and did an MSc (Forensic Science) straight after my undergrad and lab where I did my dissertation was the one I ended up doing my PhD in. This time in the lab allowed me to get to know my supervisors - if you can do this its the best way to know what you are in for!

    For routes in from outside, it is really hard to get funding from outside an institution and you are going to have to do something that your supervisor wants to do. You can do your own research during your postdoc/ fellow. Supervisors want good candidates they don't want to put too much work into and who are doing their stuff - you'll most likely need to work on stuff you don't want to/ find dull, but its a means to an end!

    As for talking to people and getting responses (with the above in mind), you want to show your passion for the particular area of research so want to go into (which is the same as the person you're contacting!), but ask for a response they can give in <10 minutes - that'll be the maximum amount of time they can spare in a day as these guys are really busy!

    As for doing the PhD, the general rule is anyone with a PhD will tell you not to, its four years of self-motivation, Adalia bipunctata going wrong, no money and less control (but it is worth it in the end... kinda, at least to make Aegis call you Dr.) and the first step into completing a PhD is to ignore those people and do it anyway! The only thing you really need is to be super stubborn. Really stubborn. :)

    Hope that helps & good luck.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2015
  16. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Great advice on here. I work in industry but I'm taking redundancy. One option I considered is a PhD because I love academia. I too am on the property ladder. I have rented my house out so the mortgage is covered in case I want to do a PhD.

    If the rental market is good in your area, you could maybe rent your property out to cover the bills while you study. If you could afford it, act as a live in landlord.
     

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