Bujinkan grading?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by GoshinRyu, Sep 7, 2011.

  1. GoshinRyu

    GoshinRyu Valued Member

    Hi there all,

    I just have a quick question for anyone who is in/teaches with the Bujinkan.

    If somebody came to your class having graded to first dan through shihan Van Donks online course, would you honour that grade? i.e let them begin their journey to 2nd dan?

    Just curious,

    GR
     
  2. Nojon

    Nojon Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein

    It would depend on your ability. (or said persons ability). Every Bujinkan dojo has different criteria/requirements for what a shodan should know.
     
  3. Sylvain

    Sylvain Valued Member

    I don't teach, but I would say, my teacher would have you come with a white belt, and earn a real grade. Online teaching is blind powder, you end up with wrong moves, bad habits, misunderstanding/no understanding of the techniques, and the martial art.

    First dan through online course isn't worth anything.
     
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    How do you know that your teacher's training is any different? :dunno: Not that I disagree with the quality of what RVD puts out. The real question is, "Why would the person who went through such a video program think that they had earned a black belt? Why wouldn't they want to start from scratch or from whatever rank the teacher at their new dojo felt they deserved?"
     
  5. Sylvain

    Sylvain Valued Member

    Because I have attended seminars with his teacher.
     
  6. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Are you a shidoshi/sensei/coach/leader?

    Makes a difference as to the answer to your question.

    Do you train in the Bujinkan? Wondering why you want to compare a RVD belt with any other?

    Happy to give my tuppence once I understand your perspective.
     
  7. Jakesdad

    Jakesdad Valued Member

    My sensei doesn't honor any grade from RVD or any other online courses(he has openely said so). Students from other instructors(that are currently in the Bujinkan) can retain there ranks but if they are not up to his standards he won't promote them any further until they get better.
     
  8. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I'm not Bujinkan. But I would honour a rank held there, at least for the initial ranking. I just had a Booj student come with 7th kyu, no issue he can wear it but like the last poster I would take it as if he just got it and will wait to see what his skill sets are.

    When it comes to RVD. I would set up an evaluation date. Then award a rank I felt fit their capability but no I personally would not let someone sit with a Shodan rank. That would undermine the effort put forth by those that wear it from classtime.

    Again with that being said, we have to look at their situation. Person may have lived in Knome Alaska and had no outlet to train, at least when gauging their situation. I'd think less of someone who did it in the same town as a school. Really I don't think it is that much cheaper to go video. RVD knows how to make a profit with what adds up to some horrible videos.
     
  9. GoshinRyu

    GoshinRyu Valued Member



    No no, im not buj at all at the mo, Was just curious.

    Basically ive lived in somewhere where it is impossible to attend a normal club.

    I do still train wich my old organisation every now and again, but this involves a once/twice a year trip over half way down the country, involving boats, trains and camels, (depending upon the bus services), and have always been interested in ninjutsu.

    I was just curious, if you ran a normal class and i walked in and said hey im a 1st dan from Van Donks video series, as it was my only method of learning. Would you honour that. I guess what im asking is, do all you 'normal' instructors view and accept Donks grades?

    Regards

    GR
     
  10. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    "I guess what im asking is, do all you 'normal' instructors view and accept Donks grades?"

    Not the ones with any integrity or brains.
     
  11. GoshinRyu

    GoshinRyu Valued Member

    Do you have the same view for all 'distance' learning in the ma?

    GR
     
  12. Sylvain

    Sylvain Valued Member

    I would ask you then, do you think you deserve that grade? I am not talking about motivation, or will to train, you may very well have that motivation, good, when you can finally walk into a real dojo, it will help you, and maybe the RVD DVDs will give you at least a started ground (maybe with the names?), I can't judge RVD DVDs, I haven't seen them. Thing is, I would feel awkward coming in, and telling that I got my black belt through online training, I would come in, said I watched those DVDs, and tried to learn a bit from those, and then have the teacher check my skills.

    If you are really motivated, and that you really learned from those DVDs, by really learn I mean, really got the right information from it, then you should be able to climb the ranks and get to the one you deserve pretty fast, else, be happy that you found a real teacher, and train hard.

    This is my opinion, online training can be a support, like, you train in a dojo, and forgot a bit about a technique, you watch a DVD, see the technique, a good reminder. Out of that, anyone selling a rank through online training, is trying to take your money, online training doesn't check your angles, your position, doesn't check if your back is straight, if your too tensed, without a partner, you don't know if you are doing right, etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  13. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter


    OK I need to step back a bit from my own attitude. There are those that have a more serious training accumen. Even those who from a video can conceptualize (sp) ideas that some may not. So this is not 100% the case.
    For the most part however the training would not be close. You need to feel it.

    Now with that being said there are a number of training vids that are good. Better explained and more detailed. Taking more time and focusing less on the rank progression. RVD is a businessman. Do it cheaply and make money. Simple as that. His vids are are flawed.


    But no, I don't think all video series are as poor. I just think vids as primary training is poor. It is a good tool if someone from your dojo is going away to college but has had primary exposure at least. As a training guide
     
  14. TomD

    TomD Valued Member

    Why do you focus on the grade? If you feel you can train well with a combination of your past training and distance learning or whatever and you later move to a place with a regular dojo, then you can just go and train, can't you? I would not give a rat's ass about a rank if I felt my technique was up to date and/or if I could kick some ass:rolleyes:
    Then, if you train longer with a dojo you can just test in their ranking system.

    Regards,

    Tom.
     
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Thanks,

    Basically this is a case by case reply in that each instructor will give their own opinion on the matter and their Dojo is their castle
    .
    You have 2 questions here though, one is surrounding the quality of RVD (or any online training) and one is migrating grades to new clubs.

    Firstly you should also realize that your 1st Dan or 10th Dan or what not mean nothing, so if you took away the blackbelt and had a student that was willing to learn, they are still on the way to 2nd Dan, in fact more accurately everyone is on the way to 15th Dan, but getting there isn’t the goal, it is the learning on the way not the destination that is important.

    When a previously graded student joins a new Dojo there will be a period of time ‘feeling out one another’ from both the student and instructor to see if it fits their needs – is the student showing any sketchy behavior, is the teacher showing things that fit into the students idea of right and wrong.

    Once a period of time has elapsed then the student could speak with the new instructor about becoming a student of them, rather than of their previous instructor – though this is unusual and you typically would keep the primary instructor up until 5th Dan even if you didn’t visit.

    Personally I moved from my teacher and instead of opening up my own Dojo I joined a great club, but I don’t get my grades from the instructor there because I consider my teacher to be someone else. I also don’t tell people my rank unless directly asked, but I am there purely to train, explore concepts and learn together in a group, so I wouldn’t care if I was MuKyu or anything inbetween that and where I am now.

    It is a touchy subject that many teachers have to deal with, but I would say the best thing is to let the person keep the rank even if at a lower level than the bar the club has – it is good incentive for them to get up to speed quickly, and those below them that are more skilled/dedicated should use this as an ego test.

    Its all about learning, rank means nothing.
     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    If you are really interested in ninjutsu, you should research it as much as possible and learn from authentic sources when the opportunity arises.

    No, learning from Richard VonDonk's videos will entrain poor form, technique, etc during the most integral part of his training. I have seen them, and wouldn't even give them to people I didn't like and didn't want to learn the art, they are that flawed.

    Wrong. You will hamper your improvement. If you want to invest in some training videos, either buy Hatsumi Sensei's or some from Manaka or Tanemura Sensei.

    Online training videos are better than nothing, barely... If you are looking into investigating an art and it's principles sure, but to actually learn it, it is impossible. Like Sylvain said, without the hands on corrections from a teacher who actually KNOWS the art, the videos are lacking much.

    Actually, some are on their way to -15th Dan but just don't know it(or won't admit it). Progress isn't a given, it comes from correct things practiced correctly, and heart(among other things). Martial arts are a progression, one performs the techniques a certain way as a beginner that you probably couldn't use in a fight.

    As you progress, you learn refinements are necessary to make the techniques work in real time. You also learn how to let go of excesses. This cannot be taught on a video series and is hard to "get" even in person. This progression is part of the path of budo but some never went through it so they can't teach it on their videos.

    Not unusual at all. A lot of people move and start training elsewhere.

    Rank is less important than ability, if a student or teacher has both then you have hit the jackpot. It is a personal issue but if people are given(or allowed to keep) something they ddidn't earn, they are often take it for granted.
     
  17. Sylvain

    Sylvain Valued Member

    Having not seen the video, I restrained myself from judging them. Though, I know of the reputation.



    By "those DVDs", I meant, training DVDs in general, not giving any specific name(just want it to be clear). Also, I talked of an hypothetical situation, saying that if you do get something out of those DVDs, then a good teacher will be able to notice it, and take it in consideration in your grading. Of course, like the rest of my post says, I doubt you can get more than the names of the techniques and some bad habits, if you don't train with a good teacher.
     
  18. GoshinRyu

    GoshinRyu Valued Member

    But what if your ultimate goal was to progress to running your own club.

    (OBVIOUSLY you could not teach if your only exposure had been video learning, that would be ludicrous, but could training to the early Dans not be done effectively?)

    GR
     
  19. Sylvain

    Sylvain Valued Member

    I don't understand what you are saying, are you asking if you could train up to the early dan with video exposure, though, you said in the same sentence that you can't teach if it's the case.

    Or are you saying that rank means something? Which, to a certain extent, I would agree with.

    Now, if your goal is to progress to open your own dojo, I would say, there might be some ego problem, and it might also impair your training(going the easy way to achieve that goal).
     
  20. GoshinRyu

    GoshinRyu Valued Member


    So what im saying is that i personally think it would be acceptable to train to the early dan grades via video etc if that was genuinly your only available method of training, but in order to teach you would have to have had some decent amount of hands on class time/supervision/training.

    GR
     

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