Bujinkan documentary of Anthony Netzler plus MMA fight

I wonder what you would say about a guy like Donnie Penelton, who's 13-166 then. And only 33 of his losses has been to KOs, so he's gone the distance the rest of the time. You can't say the guy is a great fighter, but it does say a lot about his character.

 

Yeah, taking beatings for a living is not the kind of character that I would want to emulate. Having said that, I had never heard of him but I did a quick search and found one round of his fight with Shawn Hammack. Not a bad round(other guy got a standing 8) but I imagine that it wasn't representative.

Not quite sure why people idolize people just for getting in the ring or for taking a beating, the whole point of martial arts is not to do that. K-1 fighters Satake and now ref Kakuta come to mind in that vein. All that macho tough guy stuff is all well and good when you are in high school but when weapons are put into the mix, trying to show how much you can take isn't the best strategy.

Getting back to Machida, has his success spawned a growth in Shotokan MMA fighters, or does his exception prove the rule more? Even Kyokushin guys(who are known for being tough in Japan) have special trainers getting them ready for their K-1 fights because they know that going in the ring with a Kyokushin mentality will get them knocked out.

Thanks though Kuma for opening my eyes to Penelton, pretty wild stuff.

 

Well, maybe he's not the best thing since sliced bread but this is exactly what the Bujinkan needs right now.

i.e people going out there and punching other people in the face.

 

reppin' da 616 with a doublepost

 

No its really not.

 

Your joking, right?
I would expect most 10th dan in the bujinkan to have 0-16 records, actually.

You are implying in your posts that Mr Netzler was using bujinkan in the ring, or training bujinkan for the ring. I'm not sure what would make you think that.

I'm pretty sure he trained MMA for his MMA fights. I believe he also competed at ADCC, in which case I'm sure he was training sub grappling for that event...not bujinkan taijutsu.
And he fought among the best......Josh Barnett, Mark Kerr, Rigan Machado etc. Thats pretty good company.

And as far as getting hit.....if an instructor or fighter never gets hit, its not reality.
Repeat.....individuals who never get hit and always win, are not training in reality. Because everybody gets hit. Machida, Silva, Maia, Faber, Griffin, etc.
Even champions get knocked on their asses.

 

Nothing but the truth.


No matter how much you train, how strong you become or how good your fight record is, some punk on the street can still always cave your skull in from behind with a tire iron.

We are human and we are fragile (relatively), the mark of a skilled martial artist is to understand how vulnerable we really are.

 

Sure fighters get hit, that was kinda my point. Most fighters don't fall down with almost every punch they take. So I guess we agree, that he:

A. Didn't do the proper training to not get hit
B. Didn't learn how to take a punch

I am implying that Mr. Netzler was announced by the ringman as a 10th dan in a martial art, ninjutsu (Bujukan Ninpo Taijutsu-the art of fighting multiple opponents, now shut up and learn!). When the average person hears 10th dan, they might think he was something more akin to Bruce Lee or something, not a chubby Caucasian guy. So by calling yourself a 10th dan to the general public and then fighting the way he did, some might feel that it brings embarrassment on the art that they study.

Okay, so if he didn't use ninjutsu/bujinkan taijutsu in the fight(won't disagree with you there because I didn't see much proof in his movements), why was he being introduced as a 10th dan? So which is it, is he a MMA guy with average skills, or a Bujinkan guy who dabbles in MMA, can't have it both ways. He fought some tough opponents you might say. Yeah, I know he fought Mark Kerr to a deciscion, but was it Mark Kerr in his prime or after the painkiller addiction Mark Kerr? It's like sumo Akebono or MMA Akebono, big difference(by the way, a fighter who I respect but I wish he had stayed out of the cage too).

I didn't see someone to be held up as a banner for Bujinkan fighting, though granted my opinion is based on those 2 fights. This was why I mentioned Nagato Shihan. Is more realism needed in the Bujinkan, opinions will vary; but what the Bujinkan definitely doesn't need is people getting beat up in its name(at least not in public).

 

If you had any experience with professional fighting, you would know that what the promoters and announcers say rarely are determined by the fighters.

As to the rest of your posts in this thread... Meh.

I'm trying to figure out why you are still posting in this one. What is your end game - to convince us that he really shouldn't have been competing? That his rank was too high? That his skills are terri-bad?

Where are you going?

-Daniel

 

Oh Danny Boy, Meh? Excess gefilte fish can give you gas. Too late for end games, all your bases are belong to us already.

 

Lets also not forget these are 2 examples out of 16 in his pro career.
Are you really willing to condemn him based on 2 clips?

Doesnt really matter. In that same division Kerr beat Josh Barnett, and Rigan Machado as well. And in the absolute division he beat Leo Vieira, Ricardo Almeida , Mike Van Arsdale and Sean Alvarez.

Some other notable names in that competition were Antonio 'Nino' Schembri, Tito Ortiz, Jeff Monson, Rodrigo Nogueira, Matt Hughes, Saulo Ribeiro, Jean Jacques Machado, Renzo Gracie ....the list goes on and on and on.

You arent grappling in a tournament with these guys by accident. Most average grapplers are not competing with this caliber athlete.
The fact that Netzler was in this group, is significant.

I disagree 100%. I think this is exactly what it needs. Rather then "masters" who avoid real physical activities such as this at all costs, for fear they may actually loose, and expose their major shortcomings.

Thats what many people just dont get. You will actually get MORE respect from others when you put yourself on the line, are honest with yourself, humble, and try your best.
EVEN IF YOU LOSE. Yes, EVEN IF YOU LOSE.
Exactly what many TMAs are lacking is real fighting spirit, A.K.A balls. You dont get it in the dojo with compliant training partners and inflated rank.
You just dont.

 

I thought we were talking about ring sports, not self protection scenarios.

MMA would not be my first choice against a knife or firearm either.

 

I think you'll find that when a weapon is introduced, ring fighters will change their movement significantly. With their experience navigating legitimate violence, they tend to adjust better than others who may have spent less time in genuine, if regulated, conflict.

Translation: You'd be surprised how terrifying a good MMA guy is when a knife is involved.

 

I come from a predominantly ring fighting background, and going bare handed against a knife is my last option. I'd prefer to have a rifle, shotgun, handgun, a long club, a knife bigger than my opponent's, a knife the same size as theirs, my striking skills, and my grappling skills in that order. Since MMA concentrates on the last two, not exactly my priority for knife defense if you catch my drift.

 

Oh, of course. The thing is, all but the latter two are dependent on your circumstances, and those two will also enhance your ability to retain and apply the former. I'm sure you know this with your line of work, but for the sake of putting it in text, there it is.

I find that in sparring with a knife, the skills learned in MMA practice transfer pretty directly, and the guy with the better picking, angles, and wrestling will usually win regardless of who has the knife.

And of course, all that is trumped by the ability to move and observe in such a way to that noone is able to attack you without your knowledge. (not letting people pass behind you unaddressed, not standing so close to people that their hands aren't directly visible, all that).

Finally, it's not always the bad guy who has the knife. I personally know at least one MMA guy who regularly wears a fixed blade and several who train with them.

 

I'm not surprised. I think we can all agree that there is a greater expectation of aggression and pressure from a fighter who has a ringfighting background, which is one of the key tools for self defence; escalating past your opponent to overwhelm him and prevent him bringing his tools to bear. A good MMA fighter is going to have plenty of that!

Obviously you'd want to give him some specific principles and tactics to bear in mind to increase the chance of survival, but as you say I think they'd adjust quickly. An advantage that an MMA fighter has over other ring fighters is that they are used to adapting to fighting outside of their comfort zone (whether that be standup, grappling, wrestling etc), I would imagine. If someone trained properly against weapon attacks regularly then they'd do better, but I don't think an MMA fighter would be as far behind as some might think. And this is coming from an FMA student...

Now an experienced knife fighter should still be able to tear them apart, but considering he has a knife as well as training, that is to be expected! :hat:

 

See, maybe it's me, but in that case he's not the typical "MMA stereotype", now is he? I call that realistic training. I'll occasionally spar with free-fight rules but I do not consider that "MMA training." I just consider it training to fight unarmed for real.

 

Oh, of course not. I'm just saying that it's not uncommon, and even for those that don't actively carry and train with weapons, they tend to be able to cope pretty well when they're dumped into a situation with a knife simply because they are able to hit and control someone while preventing that from being done to themselves.

 

Going purely on own opinion and my own experiences, I don't always think that's the case. The idea of being in a knife fight is quite different from the reality. Especially when you don't see it until it's too late.

One of the jail guards in a nearby county was a pretty tough guy by all accounts. Judoka, bodybuilder, former Ranger, whole nine yards. An inmate ambushed him who had taped razor blades on each finger. Took literally over 1400 stitches to repair his face and the fight lasted less than 30 seconds since other guards were there to protect him.

A common problem I see is those who are inexperienced in knife fighting (not saying you, Ratty, just in general) trying to teach knife defenses. You've got to understand what you can do with a knife before you try to teach someone else how to prevent that from happening to you.

 

True, but they should bolster each other if you do both. Some who compete though, forget where to draw the line when violence(not fighting) rears its ugly head.

Give you three well known examples of guys who were very dangerous in the ring:

Alex Gong
Tsudo Genki
Rikidozan

2 stabbed and one shot. One got lucky and is still around but the other two... In general, the MMA exponent will be more used to taking and giving punishment than the Traditionalist(again that depends on a lot but generally), so they will be more inclined to mix it up when it might be better to avoid conflict.

In competition, size, strength, and skill all matter. But when weapons are involved, avoidance becomes paramount.