Bruce Lee "barely" knew how to grapple?

I have heard this statement a few times and it did not sit right with me as it is contradictory to what I understood to be true after talking with some JKD people.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=dJoCtd_cblQ&NR=1"]Gene LeBell talks about Bruce Lee - YouTube[/ame]

Gene Lebell is arguably one of the best grapplers to of ever lived. And he trained Bruce. In another video he stated that it was for a year. A year with Gene Lebell would do wonders for anyone's grappling. And that's not all the grappling he learned.

 

I've never heard anyone say this before...

 

Interesting to hear Gene LeBell talk about it. But the reality is we'll never know either way. No footage exists and my guess is there are no actual records that exists other than anecdotally about his training in grappling. That the source of these anecdotes is Gene LeBell is worthy of some merit. But... I don't think because he says that Bruce trained with him for about a year really means that Bruce is all of a sudden some uber competent grappler. I've trained with guys that have fight records on par with Gene LeBell for a lot longer than a year and I'm certainly no uber grappler just by association. It doesn't work out that easily unfortunately. If it did I'd be in Abu Dhabi right now.

Why would Bruce be different than any other young Asian martial artist who was keen to train and learn new things? He wouldn't. Why build him up like he had everything covered? Anytime Bruce Lee comes up someone breaks out the pedestal and starts building monuments. Puhleeze.

Training for a year IS barely knowing how to grapple. FACT. You could easily get a better understanding on what he might have known by considering:

1) How many hours a day he trained grappling per day

X

2) How many times a week he trained grappling per week

and there you have it. You would have had guys back then that in terms of grappling would have trained circles around Bruce in regards to grappling. Billy Robinson anyone? Karl Gotch? Bill Riley? Lou Thesz? The Great Gama? Not to mention dozens of and dozens of Japanese pro/catch wrestlers, Antonio Inoki, Tatsumi Fujinami, Hiro Matsuda, Osamu Kido, Satoru Sayama ( Tiger Mask) and Yoshiaki Fujiwara. If you want to really get into some Judo you could at Jon Bluming who was as hard as they come. Proper grapplers the lot of them. Not that Gene LeBell doesn't fit right up there with any of these names... he does... but Bruce Lee... not a snowflakes chance in hell.

A year of training based on anecdotal evidence by Gene LeBell don't exactly convince me that Bruce knew anything more than 'barely knowing how to grapple'.

You've got to present a better case than that I'm afraid. Sorry. Much of your viewpoint on this will be heavily dependent on your understanding of grappling and grappling history. You need to understand the backdrop and context of 'grappling' to really make an informed decision.

 

I would argue that the phrase in question here is that he "barely" knew how to grapple. Someone who does a weekend seminar and picks up a few tricks "barely" knows how to grapple . . . not someone who trains for a year in conjunction with one of the greatest grapplers in history.

That certainly doesn't mean that Bruce was a grappling expert. But the Tao of Jeet Kune Do itself should be enough to know that Bruce knew something about grappling.

 

I would feel comfortable saying I barely know grappling and have trained in it for four years now. Although I have crosstrained in some striking arts during that time, I think it's probably a good estimate to say that 75-80% of my training has been in grappling. It sounds like Bruce Lee was not attempting to specialize in grappling, even during that year of training with Lebell. I guess the benchmark of knowing vs. barely knowing varies.

 

Considering that in BJJ it takes about two years to move from white to blue belt, I think it would be fair to say that one years training in grappling is reasonably minimal. I have trained in grappling for a reasonable number of years, and I would definitely still consider myself a beginner.

 

Bruce Lee's mindset and motivations are admirable (jeez... did I really just say that?) given the background he comes from. Chinese culture by and large is based on Confucian logic and mores. It's not exactly a society where they laud the squeaky wheel truth be told. So for someone like Bruce to bother to train with someone like Gene LeBell is a good start towards breaking down that strict hierarchy of kowtowing so present in most of the Chinese systems and really... in Chinese culture as a whole. To the western mind not such a big deal... but for a Chinese person that's a pretty big deal because it essentially goes against everything you know and have been raised in.

 

Again the issue is we are dealing with what is essentially an appeal to authority. We don't know how much he trained or how it was put to the test. Did he train one day a week for a whole year? Three times a day for a whole year? Fives hours a day for 365 days?

That's just it. No one knows. The bit that Gene Le Bell contributes is anecdotal at best. Gene gets as much mileage out of that anecdote as do the Bruce Lee fanboys. Don't get me wrong... Le Bell is a died in the wool bad ass and competed in what could be ranked as some of the first MMA matches of this century - read up on his history and you'll understand.

But... just because you train with someone who's well skilled and a master of the art of grappling doesn't automatically make you a great grappler. Not even a competent one. It means you trained with someone who was great. That's it. Period.

My guess is that any top level highschool wrestler or div. 1 college wrestler would have absolutely smashed Bruce Lee. Anyone who's been shot on by someone from either understands why wrestlers shots are so hard to deal with. So if that's the case... put him in with some like Rustam Chiev... no hope in hell. None. Not that most of us would fare any better...

Yeah... it comes down much to semantics and tone. He may have understood something about grappling... however being knowing of and being competent in are two different things.

You could pick up a truckload in a year of 1-on-1 privates with a guy at the level of Le Bell... man that's like a dream come true. But if you can't quantify what was done... it's pretty hard to make be sure of Lee's level of knowledge or how much he was able to apply what he'd come to understand about grappling.

 

Doesn't look like he'd be tapping out a Gracie anytime soon at 1:13.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxoJ-O1B2D0"]Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon - First Fight - YouTube[/ame]

 

If you watch the latest documentary on Bruce Lee with interviews with people who trained with, fans, dana white, Gene Lebell and his family, Dan Inosanto, it's called I am Bruce Lee, Gene Lebell talks about how Bruce Lee was a good man and a great fan, but he also says "I'm pretty sure I could snap him like a twig." In a winking way. Take from that what you will. But Dana White called him the first Mixed Martial Artist.

 

You have to consider his weight class...

 

Aye, but Dana White also said that Ortiz would never fight in the UFC again (and did), that there would never be a womans division whilst he was in charge (and there will be), so.........

Lebell himself was doing 'MMA' before BL, and what about guys like Kano? Not to tear down what BL did for MA (he did a hell of a lot!) but he wasn't the first.

 

He was the first to bring it such publicity. He was an Amabassador for Chinese arts to the USA. Everyone knows who Bruce Lee is and what he did.

Only few Martial Artists know who Kano is.

Gamers would think of the Mortal Kombat character, a kid in London (without knowledge of MA) would think it was the rapper.

I say Bruce Lee everyone knows who he is.

 

Jigaro Kano > Bruce Lee.

End of.

 

FTFY

Anyone who has trained MA for a significant period of time knows who Jigoro Kano is. Anyone who doesn't can't seriously be considered an authority on MA.

 

in all seriousness why is this important ? I don't say that to flame this is a question that comes up allot I just don't see why it matters so much even to JKD people, what implications does it have for JKD or martial arts in the present.

 

Bruce Lee's contribution to the philosophy of martial arts was essentially giving Jigaro Kano's views on training more exposure in the west, this subsequently has made him a more famous figure in popular culture but a more important contributor to the development of martial arts no chance.

 

Bruce trained with Gene as well as Hayward Nishioka, Wally Jay and (lesser known) John Ritter (Silat)

However his grappling was very much a latter development. Larry Hartsell addresses this much in several interviews. Bruce was only 32 when he died and was still constantly developing.

Was he a good grappler? Irrelevant to me - he knew it was something that needed addressing and therefore it is something I always seek to address.

Bruce is far more important as a "finger pointing" than as a finished product

 

if lee went the way the inosanto then im sure he'd be pretty competent in BJJ and wrestling by now.

 

seriously this is news, i thought it was common knowledge he didnt know much grappling, it simply wasn't his focus and he dies so young its hard to say where he would have gone with his training, but really this is news to people?