Bringing KWON BEOP into the 21st Century

Well..... since we are summarizing things ....lets summarize the contributions over the last ten posts or so.

a.) Apparently you feel good enough to come onto a forum under a pen-name and anonymously deride someone for researching this practice. You don't seem to have a problem being a put-down artist, and apparently a cowardly one at that. If you believe so strongly in what you are saying how come you don't support your stand by using your real name?

b.) Apparently you don't have enough insight into the subject to make a productive contribution. You seem to be aware of the Korean players just enough to raise them up as actually knowing what they are talking about....but you don't seem to be able to demonstrate that they do, in fact, understand what it is that they are doing when they do it. In fact, from what I understand from Dr. Choi, even the SIBPALKI people do not agree on how the material is being interpreted....and even his own take is not exactly the same as his teacher's.

c.) There does not seem to be much in the way understanding--- on your part---- of just how scholarship works. For myself, I don't HAVE to agree with people concerning their conclusions. I also don't HAVE to agree with people in order to communicate with people about a subject. For instance, I discuss politics and the current president here in the US all the time, but have a much higher opinion of his performance than a great many of my countrymen. Scholarship is NOT necessarily about degrees, and schools and knowing who has THE ultimate understanding of a subject. The greater part of Scholarship has to do with dealing with and hopefully resolving--- or at least reducing--- some of the grey areas. At least tell me that you understand this much, or did you think that scholarship is somehow about an ultimate "who's right Contest".

The only other thing that I can share is that your attitude is not foreign to me. I have been dealing with this sort of fearful antagonism for quite some time. What I have noticed over many experiences is that people such as yourself are afraid of being ridiculed for having an understanding different from the mainstream, and, in turn, affirm their membership in the mainstream by deriding others.

Now..... do you, or do you not have something to contribute to the knowledge base of this thread?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Bruce,

Can you clarify what you are looking for? What I mean by that is: are you looking for an authentic product or the construct that created such products?

I think the answer may point you in the direction that may best suit your needs.

In Korea, the standards of scholarship vary from University to University...much more than in the US.

Schools that are more construct-oriented are: SNU, Yonsei, Korea Univ. These schools are amongst the most famous in Korea and are able to draw faculty from other countries. These schools focus on the history of traditions and try to explain the socio-polico-economic environment that may have brought about certain martial traditions. In essence, they are "setting the stage" for what has come to be. Thus, whatever martial tradition interpretations a scholar might have DEPENDS on the conditions of the times. Indeed, I think Dr Choi is from a SNU background. Whenever a scholar pieces together a construct...whatever product that is formed will probably sound like just "his take" on the matter...albeit from a scholarly POV.

Schools that are more product-oriented are: Keimyung, Yongin, Hanyang, Youngsan Univ. These schools are not necessarily known for their traditional western scholarship, rather, they integrate Oriental Martial Arts into their PE curriculum and try to tie in modern practices with assumed traditions (thus you can actually "major" in TKD and be belted during schooling). Folks at these schools will more likely view manuscripts as both a "how to" as well as "historical." Thus, manuscript study will be highly regarded. Whether interpretation of said manuscripts is correct or authentic is debatable. If you were looking into product-oriented schools, to get a broader sense...I think you are delving more into cultural anthropology than strict martial traditions FWIW.

I get the sense that Dr Choi is trying to bridge his construct-oriented training with modern products. It is from this effort that he is able to judge whether interpretations of SIPALKI material is authentic or not. He is probably going to side with contextual circumstances and established social/political order.

 

Thanks, V-M:

My intention, for quite some time, has been to raise the level of discourse on KMA. That's it, pretty much in a nut-shell.

The overwhelming numbers of responses to this effort have included the following.

a.) Who do you think you are?

b.) What gives you the right?

c.) What authority do you have?

I could go on, but usually the responses are some play on one or more of these three themes.

In a very small number of responses another person may pitch-in some information but it is very likely to include a disclaimer not to use a name, or location or key information for fear of that person being identified to the great MA population. What just happened in the last ten or so posts is a very good example of why this is the way that it is. People do not want to be alienated from or maginalized by their groups for asking questions. As a result, questions are not asked.

In following my Hapkido career, I have heard many individuals invoke the Korean martial and military practices of old---and that is pretty much as far as it gets. So, for instance, a person could make a claim such as "TAEKWONDO proceeds from the Korean KWON BEOP traditions", but just try to get that person to explain the biomechanical connection.

Edit:

So I suspect that in answer to your question, I am looking for as "authentic" a take on these practices as I can possibly find. In this way, if there is already an authentic (IE. documented; supported; accepted) version thats what I am looking for. If there is a version which is accepted by some but not others than I would hope to reconcile these variants. What I won't be accepting are anymore of these declarations based on something as arbitrary and subjective as "oral traditions".
What we do deserves better than to simply be some sort of theatrical hobby whose sole purpose is the consumer's entertainment. Don't you agree?

BTW: For your own personal well-being, I hope you are not holding your breath waiting for a productive contribution from "the fans".

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

This gets better all the time:
a) dadams is my name, not a pen name. I have been on many a forum with you over many years. I have even had direct email contact with you. If you can't work out who I am from that then that is your problem. I have never hidden anything.

b) you know what Bruce I was going to make a contribution but I believe I stated my point earlier in that my Sibpalki training has me at only a beginning level and that I would prefer to defer to my teacher (just as Yopchagi stated). And also that if my teacher and instructors don't have a clue as you stated then there would be nothing of value for you. You just don't get it. You put down what people study as well as their teachers and you expect them to "help you".

c) I think I have a pretty good grip on scholarship seeing it is what I do for a living. Just having an opinion Bruce does not make for scholarship. Being able to research it and back it up is what makes the difference. You see that is where I had a problem with your posts in that you derided the Gwonbeop practice of the Sibpalki practitioners (first - before I even posted on this thread), without doing the background research first. It is you who exhibited the poor scholarship born out of ignorance because you were not aware of the entirety of what they practice. I tried to come along and point this out but you got all defensive about it. You were the one who started the derision by aiming directly at them first.
And if you do remember I also even praised your efforts even though I believe that the comments about them being clueless, about them having no knowledge of application to be wrong from my actual experience of training with them.
And scholarship is not about having to agree with everyone else as you rightly pointed out.

VegasMichelle has made a great point and it is something I said directly to you quite some time ago but your memory must be fading, in that you have to know what it is you are looking for. What set of attributes it is that will allow you to decide "this is it"! This is what I have been looking for and what I want to put my efforts in to. Because for a long time I thought that you were after pre-occupation material. Then you came across Dr Choi who provided you with material. You had books and videos. You also claimed that through your study you had a fair idea of what pre-occupation material was to look like. Yet you continued to ask Dr Choi if what he taught was genuine pre-occupation material. He gave you his answer and yet you continued to re-ask the question. If from his answer and from the material that you were given, and from your previous knowledge about what it is supposed to look like, then I don't think that you had come to a decision in your own mind about what it is that you were looking for.

The funny thing Master Sims is we have very similar goals. We just go about things differently.
You tried a similar thing within the Hapkido community and ran into brick walls. You tried a similar thing on other forums and got banned.
See a theme running?
As I said before I think that there would be many people willing to work with you, I don't think it is what you are asking, but how you ask it. And how you keep on going at it even after people have given their answer.

 

This gets better all the time:
a) dadams is my name, not a pen name. I have been on many a forum with you over many years. I have even had direct email contact with you. If you can't work out who I am from that then that is your problem. I have never hidden anything.

Why should I have to "work anything out"? As was said earlier, how come you can't just introduce yourself, state your background and make your contribution?

b) you know what Bruce I was going to make a contribution but I believe I stated my point earlier in that my Sibpalki training has me at only a beginning level and that I would prefer to defer to my teacher (just as Yopchagi stated). And also that if my teacher and instructors don't have a clue as you stated then there would be nothing of value for you. You just don't get it. You put down what people study as well as their teachers and you expect them to "help you".

Oh, I "get it" alright. You were "going to make a contribution but...." somehow it just didn't happen. Of course, you found plenty of opportunity to run me down and criticize the thread but you were just a teensy-weensy bit too "honorable" to do anything but defer to your teacher....who, of course, will never quite get around to discussing things here. Funny how that works.

c) I think I have a pretty good grip on scholarship seeing it is what I do for a living. Just having an opinion Bruce does not make for scholarship. Being able to research it and back it up is what makes the difference. You see that is where I had a problem with your posts in that you derided the Gwonbeop practice of the Sibpalki practitioners (first - before I even posted on this thread), without doing the background research first. It is you who exhibited the poor scholarship born out of ignorance because you were not aware of the entirety of what they practice. I tried to come along and point this out but you got all defensive about it. You were the one who started the derision by aiming directly at them first.


Oh, here we go again. "I think I have a pretty good grip on scholarship seeing it is what I do for a living." But, apparently you don't have a sufficient grip so as to make a contribution here. And having taken such "noble" offense at my criticism of Korean practitioners---(How wonderfully gallante' por vous)---you were, of course, much too upset to make a productive contribution.

And if you do remember I also even praised your efforts even though I believe that the comments about them being clueless, about them having no knowledge of application to be wrong from my actual experience of training with them. And scholarship is not about having to agree with everyone else as you rightly pointed out.

"no knowledge"? Oh, I'm quite sure they have knowledge. Can they understand what they think they know? Can they communicate it? Can they deconstruct what they have and project that foundation to other conditions and situations? Maybe they can, and maybe they can't. One thing is for sure, if any of this is possible, according to Mrs Choi it will come as a handsome monetary cost, and a person will be expected to be held suspect until such time as the people in positions of control elect to feel differently. How very Korean---on both counts.

VegasMichelle has made a great point and it is something I said directly to you quite some time ago but your memory must be fading, in that you have to know what it is you are looking for. What set of attributes it is that will allow you to decide "this is it"! This is what I have been looking for and what I want to put my efforts in to. Because for a long time I thought that you were after pre-occupation material. Then you came across Dr Choi who provided you with material. You had books and videos. You also claimed that through your study you had a fair idea of what pre-occupation material was to look like. Yet you continued to ask Dr Choi if what he taught was genuine pre-occupation material. He gave you his answer and yet you continued to re-ask the question. If from his answer and from the material that you were given, and from your previous knowledge about what it is supposed to look like, then I don't think that you had come to a decision in your own mind about what it is that you were looking for.

And since you dredged-up this crap from the past...let's make sure we keep it accurate.

1.) My attention was directed to Dr. Choi's highly qualified explanation of what he does well AFTER I started making my requests. You will also recall that the explanation that WAS provided likewise came after a series of exchanges with Mrs Choi by individuals who also wanted to know the exact nature of what Dr. Choi teaches. Am I to understand that you fully expect that I would fly half-way around the world and pay over $400 per hour without first asking if what I was being exposed to was Dr. Choi's take on something or his teacher's!? Interestingly, I can also state that until I started asking questions, no mention had been made of exorbitant hourly rates. How wonderfully "Korean" that position is; IE. "I have the real deal, but to get me to share it you have to take it on faith and pay me lots of money."

The funny thing Master Sims is we have very similar goals. We just go about things differently.
You tried a similar thing within the Hapkido community and ran into brick walls. You tried a similar thing on other forums and got banned.
See a theme running?As I said before I think that there would be many people willing to work with you, I don't think it is what you are asking, but how you ask it. And how you keep on going at it even after people have given their answer.

Oh, yes. I am aware of a VERY loud and clear theme. Post-Occupation KMA is about the following:

1.) Practice is what I say it is; 'cuz I say so.
2.) If you want to get along here, see Point #1.

The simple fact is that the core of scholarship and research is to ask questions which is the very thing that is proscribed by the KMA community at large. In fact, to a greater degree, NOT asking questions is raised to a kind of nobility, sorta like Japanese SAMURAI taking pride in not being able to read or write.

I think this just about does it, though, don't you? You've had your fun and taken all of the standard "shots" I have come to expect from these exchanges. Predictably you can't quite bring yourself to make a productive contribution. Maybe now would be the time to either put-up or shut-up, yes? Honestly, I don't care how you want top excuse yourself. You either have something to contribute to advance the understanding of KWON BEOP or you don't.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

What is wrong with you that you repeatedly make derogatory comments about koreans, korea, and korean martial art. You are a small minded person. At this point, I am reporting each and every single time you make any derogatory comment about koreans, korea, and korean martial art. I cannot believe you are a teacher. Disgusting! I have reported your most recent derogatory comment.

 

Prove me wrong if you think you can.

Just do it on your own thread.

 

Not interested in debating with a racist. Would rather just report your posting as I have and will continue to do.

 

Why should I have to "work anything out"? As was said earlier, how come you can't just introduce yourself, state your background and make your contribution?

You know what Master Sims. You could have just come out and asked me politely, instead you accused me of using a pen name. When it is a simple reflection of my actual name D Adams. Given that I stated I had trained in Sibpalki in Korea and it would be obvious that English is my native language, and you have spoken to me on another forum about my experience training in Sibpalki and that you know that there are very few native english speakers who have trained in it, AND my name is the same on the other forum, I thought it would have been obvious who I was. Sorry for giving you the credit for being able to work it out.
Accusations of using a pen name is also a bit disingenuous seeing you often use glad2bhere on many other forums.

And I agree, that I think that we are done. The thread has degraded into a slanging match and it isn't getting anyone anywhere which is a shame.

For my part I apologise to others for coming on here and trying to point out that in my experience the Sibpalki practitioners did in fact have knowledge of application and that they do in fact have a clue about how it fits together. Maybe not as some people would like it to be.

 

I see. Have you had a chance to check out the various publications on Dr Choi's vitae? I think they might shed some light.

Incidentally, Dr Choi has a connection to Youngsan Univ...the same institution in which IHS is also a professor. It looks like the KSW representatives on the faculty aren't research-oriented, rather are product-oriented. There are, however, other faculty members that seem to be doing research in areas that may overlap with what you are looking for.

I see that Dr Park of Youngsan Univ has this one item listed in her abbreviated vita that might interest you:

2005.10 Study on the historical exchanges in martial arts between Korea, China, and Japan - Comparison between the description of the fist techniques(拳法) found in “Jixiao-xinshu(紀效新書)”, “Heiho-hidensho(兵法秘傳書)” and “Bujutsu-hayamanabi(武術早學)”, and “Muye-dobo-tongji(武藝圖譜通志)”-(International Conference for 10th Anniversary of KSHPESD 발표논문집)

 

FWIW
I have found the Choi's to be most generous and gracious.

I'll leave the thread now so that it can get back on track.

VegasMichelle has made an excellent post.

 

'Sir, Sir, please Sir! He just made a rude noise!' How pathetic!

 

I know dr. Choi when I was in university he came as a visiting lecturer and taught us traditional martial arts and history on traditions. Later when he was chief professor of the martial arts department of Youngsan university he taught some of my friend I have studying in Youngsan. He introduced Kuk Sool to Youngsan and made the connection. His intended to make Kuk Sool Won more academic but it not yet happened. Many people know what he do and wait for his new book release on gwonbeop.
Now in the Netherlands Korean students go visit him and study with him. nobody pays, free of charge and also foreigners study with him for free. Only charge for people who come not for learning but for something fetching. Sometimes people come to get like shopping, is a bad thing.

 

BINGO!!! You hit the nail squarely on the head!! This is all I have been saying across countless threads (and forums) since Day One. If there is a place for the comercial interests, and the cultists and all of the other aspects of the KMA why, oh why is it that there is no room made for people who want to raise the understanding of what we do and why?!? I find it absolutely AMAZING that since WW II and the Japanese Occupation the preponderance of published material is little more than a reshuffling of a given amount of material and marketed under yet another name. Just look at the response here! How bloody typical of the responses of forum after forum, thread after thread for nearly the last two decades!! Sheesh!!

Best Wishes and Thanks,

Bruce

 

I don't think anybody is saying that he is not a nice guy or that he does not make himself available to his students. The person I communicated with seemed to have a good heart and the best intentions in the world. There is a difference between wanting to lecture as an authority and being able to sit down and discuss something critically.

When I was first made aware of Dr. CHOI Bok-kyu, the suggestion was made that he was a good resource for what I was seeking. The only qualification was that he was not usually open to corresponding with Westerners. I suppose I found a bit of that, but nothing terrible. At the time I certainly made it clear that I wanted to be engaged in his efforts in any way I could. Where I think we had a falling-out was that I did not want to be a fawning student kneeling at the foot of the master as he pontificated. There was also the matter of building the K I M A organization and the retail efforts as well.
And THIS is where I get into that whole "how Korean" issue. The simple fact is that I am completely fed to the teeth with how everything seems to come back to 1.) build an organization and 2.) make some money. If there is someone out there who does NOT think like this about the KMA I have yet to meet them!! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

And if we buy into this, Pugil, it will consume the next 10 pages-- trust me. IMHE I have found that folks such as SeongIn would rather bicker about subjective things like "rudeness"than make any productive contributions. It is a way of keeping their hand in without ever actually being a part of whats going on, as it were. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Totally off-topic, but since the thread has been meandering recently, it shouldn't be too distracting to throw in a quick comment concerning this statement...

1.) build an organization ~ I see nothing wrong with such an endeavor, especially if it provides a venue for like-minded individuals to gather together, whether it be simply for the camaraderie or preferably, something more noble than just a social aspect.

2.) make some money ~ Again, nothing wrong with this notion either, as not all worthwhile organizations need to be run under the guise of non-profit.

I do see how in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, that deceit and/or a lack of integrity could creep into the scheme of things, and isn’t it these two things I’ve mentioned (as well as other stuff along these lines), which has really gotten your goat, Bruce?

 

Absolutely right, Unk. And I will even add that I totally understand the exitence and purpose for these activities so its not that I have been opposed to their existence. What really sets me off is just how pervasive these two aspects are and the incredible sway they hold over the KMA.

For instance---- on another thread--- there was discussion about how restrictive the WKSA is about people cross-training. At first I thought it was merely a matter that KS teachers did not want students bringing alien material into a KS school. Later it became apparent (at least to me) that in the case of this organization, students were expected to get all MA information exclusively from their teacher and noone else. I have seen this sort of territoriality over the years and it definitely puts a damper on communication and sharing.

In like manner, the pursuit of the almighty dollar often means that unless an activity turns a buck, it is not an important consideration to the group. I can go all the way back to a TKD test in Olney, Illinois back in the 1970-s where a master walked out of the building with what had to be over $3000 in his brief case. The same goes for tournaments and seminars. But what ever got better for the students and their school for all of that? Did the quality of the MA education ever grow?

So, yes....these are the two biggest objections to how the Koreans have dealt with their traditions. And to make matters worse, this two-pronged attitude is being passed to the next generation already. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

hi, Bruce, I know I am a bit late in this reply, as this post was some pages ago, however I am playing catch up here in the KS forum, so please forgive me.

Also I don't want it to seem like I am picking on you, or anything like that, but I just wanted to point out that what you say here in a and b can directly be applied to the MYDTJ.

Just substitute drawing for picture. And I'm sure there are a wide variety of interpretations that also exist.

Anyways, just wanted to add my .02 for what it's worth.

 

Exactly right!!! To my mind this is precisely why there needs to be so much discussion and examination of this material. In the case of the Koreans, for example, if they had decided to simply keep all of this to themselves and shun the outside world, none of this would never have happened, right? But, once a country decides to export their practices to the outside world they give-up the right to be the sole authority and arbitrator of its content.

Once that material crosses the Korean border, the Chinese, Americans, Poles, Burmese etc etc can all ask the same question: "What about from this point of view?" And I am not just talking physiogamy or applications. There is the matter of philosophy, culture, societal norms and practices. Just in this thread alone, V-M mentioned the difference in scholarly focus, and that is only ONE piece of a huge range.

Oh, and guess what? The explanation of "'cause I said so" just won't cut it.

If a culture wants to be the sole arbitrator of its traditions then I suggest that they forget about letting the practices out of their country. If its a question of "my game+my equiptment = my rules" then I am afraid we will have to add ".....then only in YOUR ball-park and spare the rest of us." FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce