Bringing KWON BEOP into the 21st Century

Agreed. This also is an excuse that is used very often and, honestly, I am tired of letting the proponents of the Korean martial traditions "off the hook" so easily anymore.

When I go in front of a High School or College class, I am expected to know what I am talking about. If I just make things up and only pretend that I know what I am talking about then I am cheating my students. Now, lets compare that to what I see in the KMA.

Since about 1976 or so I have had dealings of sorts with various Korean practitioners here in the US. That means that for over 30 years I have heard the same silly histories, the same silly stories, the same stupid boasts and put-up with the same strutting arrogance and the same organizational bullying. What I understand from you, now, is that back in the shadows of Korea there are "real" scholars. If thats true maybe you can tell me why we are still operating under the same silly stories and stupid boasts that we started with three decades ago??

If there are informed scholars back in Korea, lurking in the shadows, how is it that there has been no fundamental shift in nature and practice of Korean Traditions? How come there are no Koreans starting threads such as this and working to bring authentic practices to the attention of the public? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

1) If you were Korean, you'd probably get away with having a greater impact with less scholarship in the KMA community.

2) Since you are not Korean, you may want to sidestep the whole race/ethnic/cultural aspect in favor of universal scholarship standards...and lead a sort of a meritocracy. That way, your researched views hold more weight than the musings of some arrogant Korean man who has advanced the art in a lesser way but is given equal (or perhaps more) gravitas.

3) Life is not fair. Some people deal with it better than others.

4) Americans have ALWAYS trounced on outside opinions in most worldly elements. Do you think we don't hold the weight of fellow American opinions over folks of other cultures...in most everyday practice? Research, experience, scholarship be damned! We call plenty of foreigners "barbaric" without much thought.

5) Well, the tables have turned in this case where in KMA, the opinions of Koreans are simply going to outweigh a Westerners'...scholarship be damned!

6) To complain about fair treatment and equal playing field in terms of scholarship is laughable when we don't always give Eastern traditions full credit (and still don't in modern academia) but we expect to be given this respect in return. Entitlement perhaps? But I think that might be too harsh of a word considering scholarship is undeniable.

 

Absolutely, 100% correct, V-M. Know that I agree with you on all counts. And I can add that in my time I have probably erred on the side you have characterized, so I am not looking for a "pass", either.

My personal view is, essentially, "enough is enough". The fact is, V-M, that the world is abysmally ignorant of authentic Korean traditions--pure and simple. I also think that a significant portion of the responsibility for this situation rests solidly with the Koreans themselves. Its not a matter of missing citations, though. Instead, where I start is with the failure of the Koreans to police themselves regarding how traditions are preserved and promoted. In the case of this thread, for instance, we are talking about material that has been routinely referenced since TKD first came on the scene. But, how much actual scholarship has been dedicated to these practices? What do the Koreans themselves know of these practices? How many Korean nationals have contributed to this discussion in 13 pages?
Wouldn't you agree that we are way overdue for some informed discussion of what we do and why? I would have thought that the Koreans themselves would want to proudly lead the way. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

i dont know if koreans are actively searching for 'kuk sool' or 'bruce sims on korean martial history' on daum or korean yahoo. as a matter of fact, why would they? this is a people who:
1)works or studies most of the day
2)probably wants to relax at the end of the day
3)even if it meant telling a fabrication to the whole world, the effect on the confucian microcosm is probably more important.
all i am trying to say is that this culture may value respecting their seniors more than historical accuracy. who knows, maybe when the old group of oldboys go, the new group will change the paradigm

 

I hope you pay very, very close attention to that point "3)", as the implications are staggering.

The core principle of any Martial tradition is to imbue the practitioner for an appreciation of the goals and intentions of "something-greater-than-himself". This "something" can be practically anything including a military unit, community, country, religion or what-have-you. Consider that to relate one individual to anotherin the manner of point 3 is nothing more than institutionalized selfishness. IOW instead an individual thinking only of themselves, one now has a group bound together as individuals with each thinking only of oneself. Raise this to the point that one is justified in "telling a fabrication to the whole world" and I think a person would be compelled to ask just what the hell the KMA have been about for the last three decades, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

the kma for the past 40 years has been about spreading across the world faster than any other martial art. if the korean arts had the unity of aikido schools, we would be unstoppable...but as your point suggests, individualism wins out eventually when a confucian is placed in a capitalist environment. i don't know what you want to hear(maybe i do), but you are in the wrong subforum if you think you can convince anyone here their seniors are selfish. i have said this before: pubs are public. i wont walk into one madrid and expound the merits of barcelona futball.

but like i also said in my prior post, just because our seniors all followed a story, does that mean we need to? the merits of our systems stand out on their own, regardless of history. this is what my seniors have given me, and i do not think they are selfish.

 

In a fantasy there are a few things I would like to hear.

a.) I would like to hear well-educated and instructed individuals take what they have learned and begin to (re)build on it.

b.) I would like to hear Korean practices drop their Japanese structure of rank and revert to the Confucian model of advancement.

c.) I would like to hear that established organizations have begun to adopt study-groups where individuals learn about what came before the 20th Century and its various fads.

d.) I would like to hear at least as much information contributed on these threads as criticism of whatever information IS contributed.

e.) I would like to hear a shift in rhetoric to suggest inclusion for the sake of advancement rather than exclusion on the basis of philosophy.

You asked what I wanted to "hear", and this would be where I would like to start. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

what would be a good example of a confucian rank progression? the only rank progression i know of besides our style is that of the goryeo kingdom which is laid out in a table format in lee's book 'a new history of korea'. this is a system of 18 ranks('pum'); 9 split into 'high' and 'low' or 'a' and 'b' sometimes, too. from the day i received my black belt my instructor has said that back in those days young men would take the mun/mu gwa and upon completion be given a rank of 'cho-wi'(bottom level guys), with a black sash and a bandana. the problem i have is that tests were only available to those of good standing(wealthy... today the fund for classes) and if one tested well they could be placed at any rank on the list that did not call for royal blood. this is not how it is done today. i believe our rank model is semi-inline with this style.

 

Thank you for giving me much smiling.
Master Bruce is like man who goes fishing in the desert and scolding fish for staying away lurking in the water.
Coming to Korea from America is many many fastfood, Dunkin Donuts, Baskin Robbins, Coca Cola, everything unhealthy. Koreans believe America is very unhealthy, no healthy food in America. But what we allow to grow big in Korea is not telling about the America, is telling about Korean people's taste and preferences. If Americans are proud of their healthfood then why keep it lurking in the dark back there in America?

 

Now you gotta admit that was a good comeback

 

Yes, O B...it was very clever. Interestingly, though, it does nothing to advance the subject of the thread. But it was very entertaining. I wonder if our friend is able to make any contribution to the Knowledge Base of this thread.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I started to write a long-winded response and then stopped.

Did you not understand my previous post? You seem to be confusing rank assigned by a government with what goes on in a MA class. Before the Japanese came along with their ranking system when did people who taught MA ever assign rank? Doesn't it bother you that in learning a traditional Korean practice you are vying for rank as though it was some kind of sport material? Would you mind telling me where this stuff about "black sashes" came from?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Yes...that was very entertaining. Now, don't you think its about time to contribute what you know to what we are talking about here?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

it does bother me, now that you put it that way. i guess the whole rank thing is better for acknowledging roles (3rd dan being assistant teacher, 4th teacher, etc). man, this whole rank thing is kindof what we are all used to. i get it that rank is kindof is ridiculous mr. sims, but i still follow my teacher and his way. if he says rank is important, it is. is it enough to say that i will not tell my students anything but the objective truth about our method? i wont add anything and say it is 'from' our system. thus, i will slay
the lies expounded by the korean americans of old.

 

Bruce, it is sadly apparent that you understand nothing of confucianism. If you think confucian thought has anything to do with selfishness, then your claim as a scholar is bogus. Please go study the analects 100 times before you speak of that which you understand little.

Here's a hint regarding oral histories etc:

Analects 15:40. Confucius said, "In words all that matters is to express the meaning."

 

Feeling warmly because of you calling me your friend. I want to be friend too.

Knowledge Base here I don't know because is not clear what it exist of.

Knowledge Base in Korea very much advanced.
Basic knowledge for beginners level:
1) Reference to studying Seokjip obligatory.
2) Admittance of two versions of gen. Qi's manual (1560)
3) Comparison with Wubeizhi and Sancaituhui must do for understanding Jixiaoxinshu
4) Hopping from Jixiaoxinshu to Muyedobotongji directy is very funny. Because time gap is 230 years. Must understand what happened in 230 years. Reconstruction of history circumstances is the key.

I'm hoping pointing you some hints will help.
Master Sims please disclose your scholarly attainments and academic credentials. I'm man of big curiosity but poor English I'm sorry.

 

Then you must know a lot about this subject. Please share some of what you know about the performance of KWON BEOP methods as you were taught this material. Compared to your experience I probably know almost nothing. Suppose we start with the first Boxing methods. What can you tell me about the "Scouting Horse" Method? What can you say about its execution? What can you say about its applications? Thoughts?

If you would like to see what I have done so far, here is the address to my website.

http://www.midwesthapkido.com/

And here is the address to the pages where I am working on the KWON BEOP material.

http://www.midwesthapkido.com/internet_material.htm

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

My dear friend Sims, wanting to help but time is not many because of work. One sentence writing with dictionary need much time.
You are man of great interest. You have to find a good master because learning martial arts in internet cafe is not recommendable and not possible in fact.
And additionally, compared to my professors I know almost nothing too.
Study and reading the materials, looking for teacher I hope you will. I hope you will have everlasting happiness.

 

Well....then...before you take your leave.....

Is there a location in South Korea that you recommend that would be open to teaching a non-Korean the KWON BEOP practices we are discussing? Can you name a teacher whose class would accept a non-Korean person to train?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Brucey ol boy, you crack me up.
I needed a good laugh today and that was it, cheers mate.
So now you want to go over there and learn from the practitioners that you called clueless?
I would have thought that if they had no clue then they wouldn't have anything that you would wish to learn.
I hope none of the instructors over there read your post about them being clueless before you go over there. Might be a wee bit difficult to explain.