Boxing work against karate?

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 24, 2005.

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  1. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    He may be better at punching, but I wouldn't say "far, far" and I still think a good karate fighter will have the advantage at that range. In goju ryu, almost everything we do is in that close range. Boxers are good punchers, but they're not gods. What you people seem to be talking about, are bad karate fighters against good boxers.
  2. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    and on a trivial note:

    tyson doesn't only know boxing. tyson has also trained in 52 handblocks.

    another triviality:

    boxers also are trained to "cheat". as someone already posted, they are taught to use thier elbows and head. they also know how to kneebutt during a clinch. not so obvious but they knock knees with you and it's painful.
  3. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Sums it up very nicely.
  4. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    good post, i agree with most of that, but i would think that the major factor here would be a take down and a submission. which against an MMA fighter of equal caliber the sub could be applied just as quickly as tysons decisions on attack meathod.
  5. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    and as far as the "single strike" theory. {granted getting the clinch would be a task} it could be done. and from there one good powerful straight knee from someone like shamrock or belfort would bring the mop a calling.
  6. Gyaku

    Gyaku Valued Member

    Could the average karateka take on Tyson and win? No way! Tyson is an animal!

    But could a seasoned karateka take on a boxer yes, of course.

    Tactically, boxers can deal with other boxers, but karate has a better tactical range, we can deal with punches and kicks, but a boxer only works with punches. This leaves them with a large skills deficit. Karateka should win.

    My money is on the karateka
  7. Nick K

    Nick K Sometimes a Valued Member

    Is that really, really rude?
  8. sean

    sean THOR!


    His ego may of been his main weapon but within the mid to short range Tyson was spectacular.
  9. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Is there a point to this thread?

    While I don't believe in the whole "it's the fighter, not the style, the style doesn't matter one little bit" thing, there is much more at work than style. On average, I'd bet boxers train harder, just like anyone involved in a sport does.

    As for boxing having limited a striking match punches are usually used more than kicks. It's easier to close the gap than to maintain it. To stay in kicking range against someone who wants to get close, you have to run around a lot and it's kind of hard to throw effective kicks while you are running.
  10. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    A takedown and a submission are possible, but this thread is regarding boxing vs. Karate, not grappling or MMA. Tyson is a striker's nightmare. In his prime, he was untouchable.
  11. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    ok you're right. i'll let this one go.
  12. Juego Todo

    Juego Todo Stay thirsty, my friends.

    Since this thread is based on speculation, without a purely black or white answer, let's try a very basic comparison between boxing (pure Queensbury rules, no cheating tactics) & karate (most styles, not all) training methods.

    1) Karate
    -use of all limbs & body weapons
    -full-body targets

    -use of hands only as impact weapons
    -above the belt only

    2) Karate
    -general, overall body conditioning for excellent physical fitness (e.g. cardio, calisthenics, flexibility, etc.)

    -total body conditioning, especially to prepare the body to absorb corporal blows (e.g. use of medicine ball, roadwork, etc.)

    3) Karate
    -practice of kata & solo techniques in the air


    4) Karate
    -practice of striking against makiwara, focus mitts, heavy bags, air/body shields, etc.

    -practice of striking against focus mitts, heavy bags, speedbags, double-end bags, etc.

    5) Karate
    -initiation to free-sparring, usually yellow belt or so; very little or no contact with/without lightly padded gloves in case of accidental blows

    -initiation to sparring, usually after a few months of drills & conditioning; light contact with padded gloves & headgear to better absorb blows to the body

    6) Karate
    -from novice to black belt levels, competitions are usually on a non- to light- to semi-contact basis; drawing blood or making opponent's head go back could disqualify karateka based on excessive contact ruling; most (not all styles) tournaments discourage full-contact & disqualify accordingly

    -from novice to amateur to pro levels, etc., competitions are always full-contact; knocking down/out an opponent is encouraged to get the W, although more points accumulated can get the W, too

    7) Karate
    -although a lot of weapons are learned and practiced, actual use of such weapons are banned due to the danger-factor of trying them out on a practice/tournament opponent; most karateka will never know how it's like to actually use a spearhand to the eye or throw a low mawashi geri to break a kneecap until they actually come across an attacker on the street (karateka must stop short with a partner for safety reasons; hitting targets are not quite the same)

    -although only two weapons are allowed, boxers practice their basic 5 punches into various combinations against both targets & live opponents
    -they are allowed to explore the use & effect of all their arsenal (not as many as karate, etc.) in the ring, on a live opponent, with full-contact

    I'm not saying that one style is necessarily better than another, although I may personally lean towards one more than the other. Both fighting methods have their pros & cons. I believe that it all comes down to the fighter & how good he/she is at his/her craft. All things being equal, if a good boxer came up against a good karateka, then the safe thing to say might be that whomever throws the first good shot & connects successfully stands the better chance of winning. Remember, there is really no black or white answer. Everything in this thread is really speculatory.

    Having said that, if I was a betting man & I had to choose whom I think would better be able to watch my back, I would put my money on the boxer. Yes, I would risk the chance of losing my money but, hey, if I've got to choose only one side, I'd choose the boxer. The initial solo-training methods may be similar, but similarties end when actual sparring comes into play.

    Why? The boxer gets introduced to heavy conditioning and full-contact sooner than the average karateka. I'd bet that many karateka (not all) have not even truly engaged in full-contact. Not saying that it's a bad thing, only stating that most karateka get involved in points kumite.

    Of all the boxers worldwide, when's the last time you'd heard of a boxer who never hit, or got hit, full-contact? They do so all of the time at the local gyms. Furthermore, how many karateka (including senseis) in local dojos have actually experienced full-contact training every practice session (e.g. full body shots, repeated punches to the nose/mouth, etc.)?

    You don't have to get defensive with me and argue until the end of the world. Let's just try to be as objective as possible and, most importanly, let's be realistic and honest with ourselves. Without practicing giving/taking shots to the gut or the head in practice, do we honestly think that we could hold-up against a boxer who's craft revolves around full-contact? How would a boxer react to a blow inflicted by a karateka who has only competed/trained in semi-contact? Fantasies should not take up the time that could be spent training more realistically.

    My respects to all of you boxers & karateka out there...
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2005
  13. Shantari

    Shantari Valued Member

  14. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    very well put.
  15. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Very nice post
  16. Yukimushu

    Yukimushu MMA addict

    Indeed :) a very well thought out post! :)
  17. Gyaku

    Gyaku Valued Member

    Juego Todo, a really great post, well done. However if I could add a few points.

    First we need to differentiate between an amatuer boxer and a pro. If we're talking pro boxer vs karateka, the karateka wil be on the canvas in no time..but not in the case of the amatuer boxer.

    I have cross-trained in boxing. While I have the greatest respect for boxers (my father was a boxing champ in his day) I don't believe they can deal very easily with the added complexity of kicks and the vast changes in basic tactics that entails.

    Here is a simple example:

    Boxers tend to fight according to their build. So a boxer with a long reach will tend to play on that. they'll use jabs and right crosses, very rarely alowing themselves to get too close to their shorter reach opponant.

    The problem is that the above game plan which they have used all their boxing careers suddenly won't work. a kick can out distance a jab all the time. Tactically therefore the boxer will be caught out and will most likely be ill as ease agaisnt a good kicker. He might not have the skills to close the gap safely.

    Now I have trained in boxing and sparred with boxers and I can say that in my experience this is true.

    Of course if you give the boxer a lot of experience with a kicker that will change the equation. But most amatuers lack the fitness, skills or tactical knowledge to work their way in.
  18. Yukimushu

    Yukimushu MMA addict

    I'm sure if the boxer knew that kick's would be involved, then he'd have the common sense to breach the distance. :rolleyes:
  19. binski20

    binski20 Valued Member

    I don't want to get too involved in this thread, but would just like to add a few things.

    The main plus which is being given to the karateka is the fact that they use kicks and that they can be used to maintain the distance. While this is true in concept, it is not neccesarily true in practice. Kicks are generally slower than punches, and also do not leave a practicioner in a position of great mobility. I am not saying they are not effective in any way, just that they are a little more difficult to use in this manner than some would think.

    With that being said, boxers are accustomed to closing the distance, regardless of their specific style. Yes, boxers do have different styles, but they all train to fight at all distances common to boxing. A fighter with a long reach will still be trained to close the distance. A fighter with shorter reach will also be trained to keep his distance and so on.

    Boxing against karate is really a pointless argument. A boxer could win, a karateka could win. It largely depends on the training and the individual. When i joined the boxing gym here, I was challenged to spar by a member who had been there for months already. Tho it was foolish of me to spar so early in my training I did. I beat him. Back in high school I studied tae kwon do. A karate club was putting on an open tournament and invited our school to compete, as well as come train with them to become accustomed to point sparring. I was a yellow belt at the time and overwhelmed the lower ranked students with my barrages of kicks. They weren't accustomed to the use of kicks. I sparred a higher ranked student, and he shut be down quite quickly using both quick kicks and hand techniques.

    Why did I bother to share these stories that no one probably cares about?
    To illustrate the fact that style was not the deciding factor in these matches. 2 boxers sparred, one lost. He didn't have either proper training, technique or knowledge. When sparring against another style, some could beat me, some couldn't. Same reasons again.
  20. Yukimushu

    Yukimushu MMA addict

    I when I first started Martial arts, I was invited to watch a night of competition fights. One of the fights being hosted that night was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Boxer.

    The fight generally followed a steady path of the boxer breaching the distance, and landing some heavy shots on the Tae Kwon Do practitioner.

    The only reason bring this up, is as Binski has already mentioned, using kicks to keep distance really isn't as simple and straight forward as you'd think. I've sparred with a fair few kickers and had no problem breaching the distance and laying into them with the combinations.
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