Books on internal part of the (Yang) Taijiquan???

In EMA is used mainly Li (muscle power), in IMA is used maily Jin (relaxed power).
Jin is generated by tendon conection, Li is generated by muscular tension.
Also EMA uses Qi (as all alive things), but not to generate Jin.

 

:bang: :bang: :bang:

Edit:
OK - I don't know why I do this to myself, but:
1) What do you mean by Qi?
2) What do you mean by Jin?
3) How is Qi used to generate Jin?
4) Is a loose, relaxed, whippy, grounded, heavy-hitting boxer an External or Internal martial artist in your view?

 

I'm having trouble with this. I was under the impression that tendons are the connective tissue between muscle and bone and have little or no nerve endings (save at the connection with the muscle) to generate their own movement or other action. It is the contraction of the muscle, not the tendon that produces movement in any animal.

How does movement generated by Jin involve the tendons instead of the muscles?

 

instead? - don't be a silly billy boy.

The whole moves. Don't forget to breathe now.

 

That's a great point Kurt, which I think really proves the value of anatomical knowledge. My own knowledge is still in its infancy, partly because in my early years of martial training I accepted much that I shouldn't have at face value.

 

This has been discussed ad nauseum and nobody will ever agree.

 

You're right there - I've 'ad nauseum coming out me ears

 

If you don't understand the point being made I don't think you should be afraid to ask.

 

I'm not, and I've heard it all before. zzzzzzzz

 

So you're deliberately being obtuse then? Is that because you don't like what's being said or you don't think anyone else should have the right to ask questions on your personal website?

If you've heard it all before why do you find it necessary to make snide comments solely designed to muddy the point. Unless you really don't understand the difference between a force generating movement and the resulting movement.

 

I'm struggling to see your point that's all. Oh that's right you winged in to educate everyone you think is a thickie, and cant' read or something. That must be it..

 

You are personally attacking me for asking someone to explain how tendons and not muscles generate movement.

Since you clearly believe yourself to understand this point, having heard it all before, please answer it.

Or are you going to continue to suggest I might end up getting stabbed for asking questions?

 

1) What do you mean by Qi?
Qi is "Universal/Life Energy" that is also present in the humany body. Everybody alive has it, but people mainly don't feel it.
2) What do you mean by Jin?
Jin is the (Internal) Power that is created by: 1. being relaxed and 2. being aware of Qi. This power is not created by muscles (External), but with the use of the energy (Internal).
3) How is Qi used to generate Jin?
Anybody has the internal energy (Qi), but people mainly don't know to use it for generate power (Jin). To generate Jin one must be relaxed and aware of the internal energy. This is not easy to explain with words, but is easy to do (one must only try). Is like to begin ride a bicycle (once you succeed its become natural). Jin is generated by tendoms (Qi flow through tendoms and bones and so creates a powerful body structure that is used as Jin). Muscles must be relaxed because muscular tension obstruct the Qi flowing.
4) Is a loose, relaxed, whippy, grounded, heavy-hitting boxer an External or Internal martial artist in your view?
Many people use Qi (as Jin) subconsciously! This is natural but we are teached to use muscles. Western Boxers uses mainly muscular power. They are "loose" because in this way they are faster ("tensed" body is slower). The main difference is that they "tense" muscles at the impact point. When Jin is used the muscles are relaxed all the time. How I said the condition to use Jin is also to be aware of Qi (flowing) [beeing relaxed is not enough]. Maybe some boxers also use Jin (why not?), I don't know. In my opinion Western Boxing (as many others martial arts) can be also practiced as internal style. As I know Bruce Lee (that was highly influenced by Western Boxing) used Qi (Jin) in his punches (and I think that many others do so)! Maybe they use Jin and they don't now nothing about it (they don't know that they are using it). There are different ways to be aware of Qi: feel somthing flowing through limb, feel a heavy limb, feel the limb electrifyed,.. [or be aware of Qi in another way]. How I said some maybe use Qi (as Jin) and they don't know that they are doing it. Maybe their are only relaxed and imagine that their strike is going through the target (this is also way to use Jin).

I highly recommend to anybody interested on this subject to read:
- The Way of Energy, Lam Kam Chuen
- Ki in Daily Life, Koichi Tohei
- Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate, Rick Barrett
- Taijiquan Wuwei, Kee-Jin Wee

 

I suggested no such thing, the sugestion is all in your mind, like those hundred knives of yours. And as well as the generation of jin and movement.

regards.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudhandz
Careful no one stabs you in the back.


What are you suggesting then?

 

Flogging a dead horse jing?

 

There is just this whole body of belief that I don't believe because it has no evidence for it at all. To me it is all blind faith. I've been around Daoism and other mystical and even magical philosophies virtually all my life. I've studied the Ba Gua and Yijing in great depth, rather as I once studied the Kabballa in depth. I've read all the qigong books and done it extensively...

There comes a time though when you think - hang on - why do I believe this?

It all just seems to be "this corresponds to that" (unless you believe this source who says it corresponds to the other...)

And then I also realised, that despite the hype, the IMA people could achieve nothing that any other martial artist could not also achieve. So why bother with it? All the magical powers are a sham anyway - so why bother?

To me, these things about energy being able to do things like move your tendons - I don't believe it. To believe it would have to be a decision - a leap of faith - to believe something for which there is NO evidence. No. I won't do it.

 

I don’t see why anyone should believe things that they have not experienced.

On the other hand, I don’t see why one should dismiss things one has not experienced, this can skew ones perception.

I think its best to not solidify any belief within you, even that which you have experienced, at the end of the day the belief and the experience itself are two different things, or are they?

Why do we even need belief in the first place? IMO belief is just something which is used to secure us to our personal reality. It is like a lens which makes everything nice and safe, and keeps us anchored. But, why do we need security, i.e. belief. I think it is because we fear, if we don’t fear, we don’t need security, in turn belief is also irrelevant. If belief is abandoned our perception is purified and our judgment nullified. Then maybe we can be free?

I don’t believe this though.

 

I was suggesting to you that in good martial arts (my opinion) we are primarily taught avoidance.

My advice to you is simply to be careful of weapons (such as knives). So if you are somewhere unsafe, with perhaps, snakes in the grass. Keep your back near a wall.

That's what some of us attempt to do here, help eachother out. That people have there own ways, means and preferences of learning and practice is quite understandable. i think. Some people say 'to each their own' others say other things I can't remember now.

Sometimes 'we' conform for the sake of the group, sometimes we stick to what we like because it suits us best. Get it?

Good. Ps. there is a perfectly fine search function that was I'm sure put there for a good reason. I would also suggest this.

As regards to training I would suggest strengthening tendons etc (connective tissues) and joints(opening) through stretching or the like may be conducive to good generation of variations of power - in conjuction with other things I might add.

regards

 

I think there should be a better definition of what is know as tension. As I understand it, muscle tension occurs when opposing muscles contract together, such as in dynamic tension exercises or when people carry their shoulders too high. (Picture a guitar string being wound tighter - the opposing forces are what creates tension in the string.) This is also a natural stress response when frightened or axious. The downside to this response (if it cannot be controlled) is that you have muscles working against eachother. This obviously slows the body's movements and means you are receiving the full force of any impact targeted against you.

A contracting muscle generating movement does not indicate tension in itself.

Tendons and bone cannot initiate movement. The tendon can however act as an elastic band (in conjunction with the muscle) to deliver potential (stored) energy. That energy can only come from the muscle. Exercising the tendons to promote these elastic properties can be risky as, because they are less flexible than muscle, they can tear if suddenly overloaded. The repair of tendons is extremely difficult.

The slow movements in tai chi will exercise the tendons with minimum risk and, because of the controlled relaxed movement, with minimal opposing tension. Visualisation techniques or moving with your breath will promote relaxation of the opposing muscle groups. The variation of movement in the form and the balance of expansive and contracting movement means that the stresses placed upon the tendons are more varied, which strengthens the tendon in different directions without putting it at the same risk of RSI, such as experienced in running or even walking. This variation also keeps the body "suprised"; such as body builders do when varying their workouts to promote bulk muscle growth.

You could say this is Qi generating Jin if it helps your understanding.

Boxing training, in my experience, does not teach you to tense the muscles that generate the power at impact (although the hand and wrist need some tension to prevent injury). One of the most important boxing fundamentals is to withdraw the attacking hand as fast as it is thrown ("thrown" being an important visualisation of their technique). If there is opposing muscle tension (which is natural if someone else is trying to hit you) the opposing muscles will slow the movement, both on the outward movement and even more noticably on the spring back. The tendons play a very important part in this spring back. Boxers spend a lot of time working on relaxation in their shoulders (usually by their trainers shouting at them which seems a little counter-productive in my opinion).