Bokken vs. Longsword

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    There's been discussions and several attempts at trying to re-create an Eastern v Western sword match.... such as Bokken vs. Longsword

    These videoclips are an attempt at matching the Bokken against a Longsword (although i'm not sure how much training the longsword guy has had)

    [ame=""]Bokken vs. Longsword - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Bokken vs Longsword - YouTube[/ame]

    As many Japanese sword styles train against longer weapons such as the Bo, Jo, and spear, I doubt many would find the longsword daunting - so would the longswordsman have any distinct advantage against his eastern opponent and what's the likelyhood these weapons ever crossed?

  2. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Some Kendo v Fencing....

    Kendo v HWMA
    [ame=""]Kendo vs Historical Fencing (Kendo vs Esgrima Histórica) - YouTube[/ame]

    Samuri v Knight :D
    [ame=""]Samurai vs Knight 2 - YouTube[/ame]

  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    One of the major principles of japanese swordsmanship is to control the kensen (centreline or line of the sword) the fellow with the bokken made no attempt to do this. Taking up waki kamae (sword held down and behind) against a longsword, spear or jo would be suicide.

    My guess is that both are relatively inexperienced.

    regards koyo
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    All the western swordsmen in these vids have been abit ropey to say the least.

    The Bear.
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Actually we have the same guard in our style called nebenhut. It is fine in western because you are in zufechten (i.e. neither can hit without taking a step) the mistake the eastern swordsman made was using this guard in Krieg (war) where the western swordsman was within thrusting range.

    The mistake the Longsword guys made was to not actally using the longsword system of footwork or techniques.

    The Bear.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    If I had had a jo or indeed a longsword the eastern swordsman left so many openings that I would have been spoiled for choice.

    Neither was agressive enough.

    regards koyo
  7. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Absolutely. It's one of the things I have noticed in many western swordsmen is the propensity to void (back off) when they meet resistance as opposed to moving offline or ploughing straight through their opponent.

    If you get a free Sunday you should come over and watch one of George and Louie's freeplay bouts. It's worth it just to hear the clash of steel.

    The Bear.
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Would love to bear but if I tell Mrs koyo I am off to another practice THEN I would hear the clash of steel.
    Against a jo the sword is used at half it's length and close in to the exponent. Keeping a large maai gives control to the western swordsman.

    I think that both of those guys were just experimenting.When I used the jo against Gerry Kincaid ALL of my time was spent keeping him off me!

    From an eastern point of view I would suggest mobility closing and agression.
    Control the ken sen and attack along the line of the sword rather than attempt to knock it aside.

    hmmmm giving away too much here. :)

    regards koyo

    regards koyo
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Heh heh, hopefully we will have a few surprises left. ;)

    The Bear.
  10. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    True that. I teach my students to NOT fear the bind. Close rather than back off, unless there's a good reason for doing so. It's easy for an opponent to snipe your hands as you withdraw from the bind at the wrong time.

    Besides, if you don't close the distance, you can't grapple. And that's no fun at all. :)

    Best regards,

  11. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I totally agree, but the problem is to put it into practise :bang:
    One german source sais that you should have a deers feet when fencing, and anybody seeing a deer bounce down a hill as if he had springs attached to his legs knows what he meant. I do exactly what I should not do; I step backwards and die. The few times I manage to get my silly feet to move either way, apart from backwards, I usually end up with a graceous win :mad:
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    My problem with these types of demos is the attitude of the swordsmen.

    Eastern swordsman share the same attitude and that is "attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and dominate the opponent. When both contestants have this attitude the "fight" is over in seconds rather than it being a "competition".

    Had a few of those with shihan Hepburn and one fight saw him BITING my bokken when I managed to trap him against a wall, the same wall that he had body checked me into a few moments before. Add to that the tendancy to grapple head butt etc and you can see how much "fun" it is.

    regards koyo

    Shihan hepburn. The strike to the head did not come from above it thrust out directly from chudan (middle posture)

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  13. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    What is a graceous win? ... thats like saying someone is good loser. :eek:

    I win badly ................ and lose so much worse. :D
  14. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Yes... I'm always impressed by the attitude of the fighters at Dog Brother 'gatherings', (although their not using swords - YET!) usually their "fights" are over in seconds!

    [ame=""]Stick Happens - YouTube[/ame]

  15. Nii

    Nii Valued Member

    I think the EMA dude in the first post is from Aikido. They tend to have Kendo-esque moves but with Kenjutsu-esque kamae. Strange really.
  16. mai tai

    mai tai Valued Member

    could you show an example of a really good close and grapple.
  17. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I wasn't talking about lack of gloating, rather a perfect win, where the opponent just stands there, amazed at how complete he has been owned :cool:

    It's so fassinating to see how effective sidestepping and advancing is, and yet I manage to fail to do this, and resorts to retreating :rolleyes:
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    on tape? I know several duels on youtube where a disarm or a grapple have decided the fight, but I haven't memorized the adresses. Personally, I think closing and grappeling is very clever to do, if you're bigger/stronger than your opponent, knows how to grapple against someone with a sword and when grappeling is allowed.
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Like ME!!!! Muhahahahaha.

    The Bear.
  20. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    well if bear is so tough ...... how many 5 year olds can you take?

    linky here

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