Body Weights and cardio to reach my goal?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Joel_, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. Joel_

    Joel_ New Member

    Hello everyone. Need some advice here, I've been over thinking a lot of things lately and I just need to get some solid answers from people. I train in Choy li Fut kung fu, and have started doing some cardio and body weight exercises on days that I have not been into the kung fu school. I'm pretty new to martial arts so I wasn't in the best shape. (I'm getting there though)

    My goals are simple, reduce body fat on my torso (maybe get a little six pack going), while maintaining muscle mass. I've decreased my calorie intake a little (cut all junk food from diet), increased my protein intake, and increased my cardio, all while doing a routine of push ups, chin ups, pull ups, squats, and ab work. I've convinced myself that this is enough to get where I want to be. I don't need to be huge, I just want a little more muscle and more tone. But now I keep second guessing myself, not sure if I'm eating enough, or too much. Anyways, thanks for looking. Tips appreciated. ;)
     
  2. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    you want about 2g of protein per kg bodyweight.
    and you cant get too huge quickly. if you could id be hercules!
     
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    also theres about 20g of protein per 100g of chicken breast/meat. its useful to know.
     
  4. Joel_

    Joel_ New Member

    Do I really need that much protein if I'm only doing body weight exercise + kung fu, a few days a week? If so I do probably need to get more protein in my diet.
     
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Welcome to MAP.

    Don't get to caught up in the amount of protein per kilo of bodyweight arguement. Right now I would stick to a clean healthy diet and continue to train well.
    Give you current diet somewhere between 6 weeks and three months before you make any changes.
    If after this period you are not happy, then you can make the changes.

    You can't spot reduce the fat on your torso, as fat is lost from all over the body. It is just that it is generally more noticeable around the waist.

    Finally, if you are not losing weight then you are eating enough.
    If after 6 weeks you feel you are losing weight then up the calories by 500 per day. Give that at least 6 weeks and re-assess.
     
  6. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i would go with simons recommendation when you're starting out.
    start by getting used to a cleaned up diet for a couple months then later as you progress add in some nutrient monitoring such as calorie counting then eventually start adjusting your protein intake. most people dont really need to increase their protein intake and 2g per kg is at the high end of the scale for athletes not regular people and is really helpful in muscle gain.
     
  7. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    if it didnt grow dont eat it.

    that sentance ^ and what your doing should see you through the next few weeks, then its time to re-asses and set some more goals, thats when the fun starts, we cheer you on and i eventually convince you to do heavy squats.

    remember to work your lower back as well as your abs and so some burpees.

    (just expanding a bit on simons 6 week thing, after that we'll up the anty and all of MAP will cheer you on)
     
  8. Joel_

    Joel_ New Member

    Thanks for you help guys, but can you explain a little more about what you mean by, if it didn't grow don't eat it? I don't fully understand.

    **EDIT** oh I think I understand, your talking about the content of what I eat should be natural food. Right? That shouldn't be too hard, I just got hired a while back at a organic and natural foods store, in the produce department!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  9. Cail

    Cail Valued Member

    Well, if you just recently started your training, pretty much anything will work for you. It's one of the few situations when growing muscle and loosing fat at the same time is achievable. You need to work for that though. It would be better if you hit the gym, but even w/o it you can get good workouts. The general idea is to do the things progressively hard, and find things that you can do for 10-12 (15 at most) reps per set.

    F.e. doing 50 pushups wouldn't really help your cause, but doing 10 dips with some weight would. If you don't have weights, just put anything heavy in a backpack. And add things there so it becomes heavier and heavier workout to workout.

    For a beginner it's probably better to work on your whole body each workout. Good idea would be something like:

    1)4x8 pull-ups (if you can't do 10, do 4xMaximum, if you can do more than 10, add weight until you can't. Same applies to dips et cetera).
    2)4x8 plyo pushups (where you push with enough power to "jump" your hands and clap them before landing back). You can add weight as you progress, or you can try clapping two times (so you have to exert more power), or do both over time.
    3)4x10 high-jumps - stand before a plank (or any object high enough), squat and then jump as high as you can, bringing your knees to the chest, and land on the other side of the plank. Do not add weights to this one as you progress, jump over higher objects instead.
    4)4x12 dips
    5)4xAny chinups you can manage at this point (you're gonna be pretty exhausted, but if you're not, try doing 4x10-12)
    6)Jump lunges with weights (google it), 4x12-15 (alternating legs, so 1 rep is 2 jumps).
    7)Abs - situps (also try to keep reps within 15 by doing progressively harder things - situp on an inclined plane, hold weights in your hands, do it explosively and lower slowly et cetera).

    You should be good with that about 2-3 days a week (like 2 days of rest between workouts) for some months, maybe half a year. After that your progress with stagnate, and you basically gonna have 2 evolutionary roads. Become a bar/plank monkey (aka ghetto workout) or hit the gym.
     
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter




    Uh what? You've recommended plyometrics with weights (eg. weighted jump lunges) - without even going through some sort of foundational phase to make sure you have proper form on your lunge? It really doesn't leave the person anywhere to go to... you've started them at some sort of advanced stage with no real rationale for doing so. The same for plyometric press ups... which without good from put the shoulders, rotator cuffs and wrist at a pretty big risk. Again the risk to reward ratio is totally not in your favor here.

    Care to explain the rationale behind that workout?!?! It doesn't make any sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  11. Cail

    Cail Valued Member

    Erm, maybe i've not been clear on that point. You start without weights and add weights only when necessary (when it's too easy, and you're not feeling DOMS the day after). Not only weights, you can add something to step on for your lunge/jump (so you're sort of jumping from a stepping stone, progressively higher). Same applies to all other exercise - if you can't do 12 dips, you don't add weight until you can, et cetera.

    That's what we did in the army, since there was no real gym (we used backpacks with stones for weights), and it worked for many guys, especially those who had no prior experience with resistance training.


    P.S. Do you have a better idea how to work on your legs without access to real weights?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yeah the far better rationale here would be to build up a base of strength and conditioning with bodyweight prior to heading into anything plyometric. Plyometrics by and large need to be periodized to minimize risk and maximize any type of explosive gains you'll get. This is why they are periodized in any sports programs in colleges and in the pros. They are hard on the body and put the joints at a pretty big risk without a foundation phase.

    Most people can get access to basic weights of some kind... but there really isn't a reason to work in plyometrics and weights without proper conditioning before hand. Just regular unweighted plyos are going to be wear and tear enough on connective tissues - weights on top of that are just an injury weight to happen.

    You'll find that most people can't get in proper lunges with full range of motion and good core recruitment at bodyweight let alone explosively and/or with weights. One needs to become completely familiar with movement patterns long before attempting plyos... the ligaments and tendons take much longer to condition and build up than does the actual muscle tissue. Something to always bear in mind.

    FWIW - DOMs don't happen the next day generally speaking. The peak muscle soreness usually sets in on the second day after the workout... thus the D in delayed onset muscle soreness.


    ... I'm all for bodyweight workouts. I've spent years doing them myself... basic movements... chin ups, pull ups, press ups, horizontal rows and all the other fun stuff can keep you busy for ages. But in years as a trainer I've rarely seen anyone ready for any sort of plyometrics without a program of actual strength well planned out prior to starting plyo drills. I also like the idea of rocks or whatever you can get in a pack to make weight. Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. However.. get dead on form first and for many reps before you even consider something like explosive moves or weighted plyos.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  13. Cail

    Cail Valued Member

    I assume a person training in a martial art already does some bodyweight exercise, like simple push-ups, kicking the bag et cetera. It's not like we're talking about a coach potato. Even when i was a 11-12 year old kid and did Shotokan karate (not some pro dojo for people who want to compete, most of the guys were slobs), we still did lots of push-ups, jumps, sprints, chins et cetera..

    I couldn't agree with you more, if we were talking of someone who never did anything in his life. Most of such people can't even do 1 plyo push-up.

    Well, i wasn't meaning that literally. And, from personal experience, that depends on the workout and the muscle group. Legs after heavy lifting, f.e. nearly always peak DOMS on the second day, but for smaller muscles, say, biceps or delts after a burn-out workout, DOMS's actually strongest on the 1st day.
     
  14. Joel_

    Joel_ New Member

    Maybe I should be more specific on what kind of shape I'm in currently.

    I run 2.5 miles a day (3 miles is pushing my limit)
    Can do about 25 push ups at one time
    5 pull ups
    10 chin ups
    30 sit ups
    30 squats

    so I usually do 4x10 of each exercise, except for pull ups and chin ups.
     
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    400 metres hill runs with a minute rest between each run does wonders for your leg hypertropy and cardio. try to beat your time every lap.
    i used to do my run sessions 3 times a week over summer like this:
    week 0 - 2.5 mile time
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
    week 1 - 400x3 (beat your time in subsequent runs) once a week
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
    week 2 - 400x4 (beat your time in subsequent runs)
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - loaded carry (heavy back pack) walk 1-2 miles
    week 3 - 400x5 (beat your time in subsequent runs)
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
    week 3 - 2.5 miles run time (beat your time from before)
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
    week 4 - 400x6 (beat your time in subsequent runs) once a week
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
    week 5 - 400x8 (beat your time in subsequent runs) once a week
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
    week 6 - 400x4 (beat your time in subsequent runs) once a week
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - slow easy cardio
    week 7 - 2.5 miles run time (beat your time from before
    - slow easy paced cardio
    - sprint or explosive leg work day
     
  16. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    Well that is awesome. Take full advantage of that!

    You've basically got the jist yeah, i've never seen a bread tree or a pasta bush and i dont recall ever hunting a mars bar so they're of the list.

    if it has a face or grew out the ground its on the list.

    these 6 weeks are all about getting used to the diet and making a habit of choosing good foods, while building work capacity and preping you for some more intense stuff later down the line. Which is what slip is getting at.

    these next 3-4 months are an exciting time, you'll make crazy progress. Slip is a wise man to listen too, I'll just shout at you, tell you to do squats and upset you. if thats not your thing he's got a load of great bodyweight and plyo stuff that is really good fun and tough.

    aslo check out MAPs members workout thread for BW ideas.
     
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Interesting. I think our opinions differ a bit. Coaching many different types of people over the years... everything from couch potatoes and 9-5ers to athletes (rugby/footy/tennis) and fighters (muay thai/boxing/bjj)... I can honestly say... that very few people can do proper press ups. If they did my job as a coach would be easier and I'd spend a whole lot less time correcting people to proper form with a press up.

    As an example I'll see a class hand out press ups and the coach will say everyone drop and knock out 20 press ups. Less than 10% can knock out 20 press ups with strict form. No hip sag, head in neutral, hands under shoulders, chess to floor, planked out w/complete range of motion and proper breathing patterns... yeah the proper form press up is rare.

    There is a reason why I start damn near everyone from their knees. Martial artists are often the worst. They think they have some edge on everyone else. I've found them to usually be next to last place in terms of press up. The lowly press up isn't as exciting as punching and kicking and after it's only a warm up right? That's the general attitude. I've seen it enough to basically start everyone on their knees and only when they can prove to me the why and how of a proper press up do they progress. If I break out a stick and start checking form - it's a shocker how many people can't even keep their head neutral.

    Your mileage may vary... but by and large most people that think they can knock out 20 press ups are kidding themselves. Hips drop, head starts to dip at 10, breathing seizes up, arms go too wide.... all sorts of nonsense. Sadly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  18. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    Hmmm want to send slip a vid of my press ups now, I rock out sets of 20 while the kettle boils etc. :/
     
  19. I could not agree more SlipTheJab; Martial Artists' press ups are generally a bloody shame! :)


    Osu!
     
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    the worst push ups ive seen were from a pretty decent wrestler.

    think thats bad you should see their bench press.
     

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