Bob arum up to his tricks yet again for Pacquiao Bradley 2.

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Saved_in_Blood, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    By Gabriel Montoya

    On Monday, responding to an inquiry from, the World Anti-Doping Agency stated it not overseeing the Tim Bradley vs. Manny Pacquiao rematch being held April 12 in Las Vegas, Nevada live on HBO pay per view from the MGM Grand Garden Arena. It had been previously reported by Steve Carp of the Las Vegas Review-Journal that WADA would be conducting the testing.

    On Valentine’s Day, Carp broke the story that the Nevada State Athletic Commission had decided to step in and take over the business of conducting stricter anti-doping testing in Pacquiao-Bradley II. In effect, VADA’s bill would have likely been $20-25,000 to randomly test both fighters throughout training camp up to and after the fight.

    From the Las Vegas Review-Journal:

    The Nevada Athletic Commission announced Friday that both fighters have agreed to submit to random out-of-competition drug testing conducted by the World Anti-Doping Agency before their fight. Top Rank will pay for the testing.

    “We reached out to VADA but I talked to Cisco [Nevada Athletic Commission chairman Francisco Aguilar] and he said WADA did a great job with the [Juan Manuel] Marquez-Bradley fight,” explained Arum to Carp. “So we’re going with WADA.”

    Well, Mr. Arum, there’s a problem with that statement.

    “WADA is not a testing agency and therefore is not responsible for the testing about which you inquired,” said WADA spokesman Ben Nichols. “Only signatory organizations are subject to the rules and regulations of the World Anti-Doping Code. The boxing federation that operates under the WADA Code is the IBO.”

    More on the IBO at another time.

    This marks the latest in a series of mishaps and misunderstandings regarding WBO welterweight champ Tim Bradley and his desire to fight on a level anti-doping playing field.

    In late January, Bradley and Pacquiao agreed to meet in a rematch. As part of the agreement, Bradley announced that both men had agreed to undergo testing by the Voluntary Anti-Doping Association (VADA). Bradley’s undergone VADA testing, which sets the highest standard in sport with its strict anti-doping protocols, for his last two fights. Pacquiao underwent the VADA process in his last fight versus Brandon Rios, whose fight night sample tested positive for DMAA, a banned stimulant.

    However, by early February, Bradley announced that the testing issue had hit a snag. Much like his last fight versus Juan Manuel Marquez, ( and, it would appear that Top Rank Promotions founder Bob Arum and the Nevada State Athletic Commission have decided to handle the anti-doping tests being sought after by Bradley and agreed to by Pacquiao. Arum will pay for it and once again, Nevada appears to be willing to pay lip service to the idea that it can and will conduct testing on the level of VADA. The last time the NSAC claimed such, it turned out to be untrue. They didn’t conduct Carbon Isotope Ratio testing on every sample the way VADA does.

    Arum told Lem Satterfield of, “It’s complete WADA testing of everything from soup to nuts.”

    What does that mean? “Complete WADA testing of everything from soup to nuts?” That statement has no value. Is there testing for EPO, HGH, and the CIR testing for synthetic testosterone on every sample? Yes or no? Is the full steroid panel being used? Is Epinephrine being tested for? Are the fighters allowed to rehydrate using intravenously? WADA Code prohibits it. WADA Code prohibits the use of a needle of any kind unless express permission is given well in advance.

    Why does NSAC testing cost more than VADA when the amount of times the most expensive test, CIR, conducted in the Bradley-Marquez training camp was half of how many times VADA CIR-tested? I couldn’t tell you. Are they using IDTM or Clearidium, two WADA-certified sample-collecting agencies or will someone else be involved?

    Saying you are up to WADA Code is easy. Doing it is hard. Even still, the bar set by VADA is even higher than the WADA Code. It is a specific protocol that goes above and beyond what everyone else is doing.

    Arum and Top Rank will be paying a fee of $35,000 to the NSAC to conduct testing. “The results will go to the commission,” Arum told RingTV.

    What we don’t know is when the results go to the commission.

    In a story published on about Golden Boy Promotions and the Danny Garcia vs. Erik Morales fight, results management is a key issue in anti-doping testing. (

    In the event of a positive A sample, who gets notified? Is a positive result defined with the language quoted in the linked article as both the A and B sample testing positive? In that case, a fighter could technically test positive for a banned substance, continue with the fight having never tested the B sample at all or at least until after the fight. VADA releases results to the commission, Fight Fax and the relevant parties after the A sample.

    In the scenario in which the A and B sample must be tested before releasing results, the door is open for a terrible precedent. In that scenario, what happens when a fighter loses to someone who tested positive? What happens if said fighter is permanently injured? Is the promoter liable for damages?

    The financial risk of canceling a fight because of a positive test is great. Insurance companies likely won’t insure a fight for that eventuality but rather than control results and leave one open liable for damages, perhaps better undercards are the solution or at the very least, a co-main event solid enough to become an A-side in the event of a fight being canceled.

    An even better solution: don’t cheat.

    As with the Marquez fight, perhaps because he recognized that VADA is a high bar that has been set and once you reach a certain peak, you don’t back down, Bradley has announced that he will once again undergo VADA testing for this fight.

    Pacquiao has not joined him in that stance despite the fact he used VADA in his last fight and they detected a banned substance in his opponent. His trainer, Freddie Roach, is a big fan of VADA. His fighters, former UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, Pacquiao and WBO junior welterweight champ Ruslan Provodnikov are all VADA-tested fighters.

    But all that said, Pacquiao is letting Bradley and, consequently, VADA stand alone in this one.

    Why Bob Arum and Nevada want VADA out of the picture and into their subpar anti-doping protocol is a good question.
  2. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Thanks for the post!
    Aside Arum's motives, that was very informative about how and by which organizations anti-doping testing is conducted.
  3. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Montoya has done a lot of research over the years when I had first spoke with him he admitted he knew very little about the stuff, but he's definitely read a whole lot and talked to a lot of people in the know on the subject and has broken a lot of stories on PED usage as well as the rules of who does what.
  4. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Confusing thing there are so many, seemingly, and they don't always have clear cut jurisdictions, punitive powers or operational transparency - which I think should be a must for that kind of organisation.
  5. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

  6. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    You have to keep in mind that whatever manny may or may not have been on before that arum is keeping in mind that if he loses to Bradley again that the fight with Floyd will be gone. arum wants that fight to happen because he gets such a huge cut of manny's purse (30%). Manny already lost out big when arum got in the way of testing before and this and that happened to caused the fight not to happen. arum also wants to insure that his guy wins so Bradley will have to win by a huge margin in order to secure the decision and even then, it would be in question. Manny is still a money maker and until that fight with Floyd happens he wants to protect it... even if it means basically "my guy is taking the tests, but it really doesn't mean anything". Meanwhile, Bradley.. (who everyone seems to look down on because he got a decision vs. manny that he shouldn't have as if Tim had anything to do with the judges lack of ability to do their job) is STILL going to be a stand up guy and do VADA testing which shows who really wants to prove he doesn't need anything but hard training to win the fight.

    Boxing is a pathetic sport anymore and I'm getting pretty sick and tired of it tbh. I see guys ALL over steroid sites who are boxing and doing MMA and constantly asking "what should I take?" "how can I make sure I don't get caught?" These are questions that could be getting asked by a guy doing his first amateur fight or Floyd Jr himself... how do we know?
  7. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I'm fairly confident its the rank amateurs - I canna think Floyd trollin the net for the low - down on roids, LOL.

    Id think fellows at that level have "professional help" there. How'ever that works.
  8. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Man, I know guys that are nowhere even near pro getting on the stuff. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's very tempting. You see other guys getting a little faster and stronger and maybe some bigger (depending on what they are using) and here you are driving yourself as hard as possible and not getting anywhere near that. The biggest problem is that people are just now starting to figure out that weight and muscles have NOTHING to do with being able to tell if a guy is using. I used to hear that excuse all the time "so and so isn't huge and has only put on a few lbs in a few years", most of the stuff out there that might be getting used in boxing is helping endurance and such more than just getting bigger.

    Anyway, it's just a pointless thing until all of the boxing commissions demand complete testing in everyway, year round testing is the best way to go. Boxing will wind up being banned before that even happens. We have senators here calling for it to being banned as it is.
  9. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Should be a ban on demagoguery. A ban on politicians banning anything would serve the people better.

    Ya, I have to admit, I really don't know a lot regarding PEDs, how they are tested, all of the ins and outs of it. It seems as if they are attempting to sandbag against a kilometre-high tsunami wave.

    There's the WADA Code, the Voluntary Anti-Doping Association, which is more stringent than WADA? In the States, various State Athletic Commissions - who have enforcement power, then there are sport-specific voluntary organisations...too much to keep up with.

    Who has the final call?
  10. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    It is quite confusing. If you google Gabriel Montoya you will see his articles and many of them explain who does what, and who is ultimately responsible. The problem is let's say fighter A and B take random tests. Fighter A tests positive, they have 2 samples. The first sample they find something, fighter A then has the option for a second sample to make sure it wasn't just a fluke (in so many words). If fighter A then tests positive again on the second sample, there is supposed to be a letter, or some sort of notification to fighter B that fighter A tested positive for a banned substance. Fighter B then has the option to pull out of the fight. Now I know I'm getting some of this crossed up... but if Fighter A is caught and then after the fight it is found that it was a legit test that caught him cheating and he had won the fight, the fight is then turned to a no decision. What Montoya brings up is that what good is it for Fighter A to turn up dirty on his first sample, be able to fight, risking fighter B's health or just an unfair advantage if he doesn't know that his opponent has tested positive because his test turned up dirty and without the second sample to solidify the actual truth of yes he is dirty or no he is not.

    From what I have read in the past, and it's been a while is that the WADA or World Anti Doping Agency overseas (or is supposed to) the testing for the Olympic style USADA tests as well as the VADA (voluntary anti doping agency). When they say that the NSAC is going to do random testing... it really means nothing. Their tests are outdated and they don't use the CIR (Carbon isotope ratio) test. This test in simple terms shows the testosterone to estrogen ratio. If it's to high, then they know there was synthetic testosterone used by said fighter. The problem is you have labs who are consistently looking for ways, and making new drugs that are harder to detect. It's a battle in itself of trying to keep up with the new stuff that's constantly coming out that is harder to detect because they don't know what they are even looking for.

    It just goes on and on....
  11. puma

    puma Valued Member

    I didn't know he took 30% of his purse! So by the time Pacquiao pays all his fee's, training, etc, he probably see's just over half of it maybe?
  12. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    If Pacquiao is lucky. You'd think in this day and age and Pacquiao not being the typical old-school uneducated plunker who doesn't know any better, it wouldn't be like that.

    Still does better than those poor UFC fighters.
  13. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Well, maybe UFC isn't quite as big as they want us to believe. What the top guys there fight for Pacquiao and Mayweather probably have that in their pockets as loose change.
  14. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    This is why he should have bypassed arum and taken Floyd's offer of 40 million. If you think about it... lets assume that years ago it took place and each guy got 50 mil plus PPV. So 30% of that, plus whatever arum's cut would be for the PPV, plus manny's taxes going back to the Philippines, etc. 40 million flat, no cut to arum and just paying taxes. It would have worked out better for Manny to take the 40 and he ultimately would have been making close to the same, though part of the deal was no PPV revenue.
  15. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    It's not, there was an article a while back where they were checking on their twitter followers and most of them were inactive or had just signed up and never used the account... even Dana's numbers are false, but he looks at Floyd's 4 million followers and ALWAYS mentions his name to try to get more hits. Anderson Silva, GSP, and several others also had false numbers.
  16. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Huh...the UFC is plenty big enough...the thing with the UFC is its a totally different financial animal than one sees with individual boxers. The UFC is a corporation from White to the fighters to the bloke who's job it is to massage Meisha Tate's bottom after a workout - its a legal and functional corporate entity and would be expected to operated ( including pay ) differently.

    That's not to say that there aren't shamrocks n shenanigans when it comes to paying the UFC top fighters. They are underpaid, no doubt about it.

    I don't think that having inactive members should go against them. Having inaccurate tallies could be due from any number of reasons.

    To see a difference between inaccurate follow data and Falsified data ( implying a proactive, knowing, and wilful act(s), take a look at leading politicians' Twitt numbers and the massive amount of deceptive practices that occur there.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  17. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Here's Rampages take on it:

    Quinton “Rampage” Jackson isn’t a week out from his final contracted fight and he’s already calling the UFC out on promoting false figures.

    “They tell me one number, but then they tell the press another,” said Jackson on MMA HEAT. “Pay me the numbers that you tell the press. Don’t tell me, ‘oh, we only sold this many,’ then you tell the press, ‘oh we sold this many.’”

    It was on Saturday’s UFC on FOX that Jackson lost a decision to Glover Teixeira in the co-main event. It was the last of Jackson’s 12 fight contract. The loss was the former light heavyweights third in a row, dropping him to 7-5 for the UFC. It was the 18th straight win for Teixeira.

    Jackson thinks others fighters should take notice. “If they’re doing it to me, I’m sure they’re doing it to other fighters,” said Jackson.
  18. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Social media has played a major role in the growth of the UFC, with many of the promotion's fighters rewarded for promotion themselves on Twitter.

    However, most Twitter fans of stars like Anderson Silva and Georges St-Pierre aren't even real people.

    According to a report filed by Ingrained Media, many of the UFC's most notable fighters and popular personalities are followed online by several "fake" Twitter accounts, which are commonly made up of spambot drones or dummy profiles.

    But while many Twitter accounts will attract their fair share of spam, Roy Nelson is a special case, with only 7 percent of his followers labeled as "good" and a rate of fake followers well over 80 percent.

    To boot, here's the top 10 most influential Twitter accounts in the UFC with verified "fake" followers and inactive accounts in their social network:
    1. Roy Nelson — Followers: 566,458 (Fake: 82%, Inactive: 11%)
    2. Michael McDonald — Followers: 24,626 (Fake: 56%, Inactive: 22%)
    3. Junior Dos Santos — Followers: 599,987 (Fake: 48%, Inactive: 33%)
    4. Anderson Silva — Followers: 3,301,511 (Fake: 47%, Inactive: 32%)
    5. Demian Maia — Followers: 285,245 (Fake: 47%, Inactive: 32%)
    6. Johny Hendricks — Followers: 80,325 (Fake: 41%, Inactive: 28%)
    7. Vitor Belfort — Followers: 793,158 (Fake: 40%, Inactive: 37%)
    8. Jose Aldo — Followers: 190,192 (Fake: 36%, Inactive: 31%)
    9. Dana White — Followers: 2,517,324 (Fake: 35%, Inactive: 37%)
    10. Georges St-Pierre — Followers: 678,834 (Fake: 34%, Inactive: 31%)

    Many firms and services use dummy Twitter accounts to artificially boost a client's social media reach—also a common practice with MMA media and fansites—but the percentages above look particularly damning for Nelson.

    Interestingly, this infographic breakdown from Ingrained Media also notes that nearly one-fourth of Twitter followers in MMA come from fake accounts, affecting some of the UFC's most popular Brazilian fighters.

    Back in 2011, the UFC started to implement bonuses for fighters using Twitter (via MMA Fighting), with Nelson, Silva, "Big Nog," Maia, and JDS pocketing most of the extra money.

    That's five fighters out of the only 17 to gain bonus cash for their Twitter activity in 2011 and 2012 (via MMA Fighting), showing a flaw in the UFC's system.

    In the three categories where fighters are given monetary incentives for social media use, only the "Most Creative" section focuses on actual content, while "Most Followers" and "Highest Percentage of New Followers" are ruled by raw numbers.

    Ingrained Media additionally outs Cain Velasquez, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, Dan Henderson, Lyoto Machida, Nate Diaz and MMA reporter Ariel Helwani (who wrote the MMA Fighting piece, coincidentally) as prominent Twitter personalities with more than a 30 percent rate of fake/inactive followers.
  19. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Wow! :eek:

    Didn't realise the fakery was that high, though I have to say, I'm very distrustful of 'social media' (despite being a MAP denizen) and its use as some sort of gauge as to the merits of fighters - or anyone else for that matter.

    I thought it odd, but telling, that Dana had required all his fighters to have a Twitter acct. To think he actually relies on it at all to determine things.

    I suppose it the modern day equivalent to Caesar's Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down for the throngs of spectators at the Roman Coliseum.

    Except far more fickle and subject to manipulation than then.

    You'n see where its going then, SIB ?
  20. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Well, I see a few things. Firstly, how many UFC events are there a month at 50.00 a pop or more? at least 1 or 2 right? People are getting tired of paying that. I don't have a clue to the PPV numbers that the UFC is getting these days, but White has shown his colors quite a few times and I think people are starting to see it more and it's really turning them off to it.

    With boxing you have a few big PPV's coming up, but not to the extent of the UFC. We have as the title says, Manny vs. Bradley in a week and a half, Floyd fights next month, and Sergio vs. Cotto in June, after that I'm not sure right off. Now, these are more expensive (I think) 60.00-70.00 for HD PPV, but boxing has caught on and are no longer putting worthless undercards on their fights. Floyd vs. Maidana for instance has Broner fighting on there, khan vs. Collazo and maybe a few up and comers, but that's a pretty good card for the money. Not to mention that all of these fights are good fights Manny vs. Bradley is 50/50, Floyd vs. Maidana fools the public into thinking that Broner who is supposedly like Floyd stylewise will cause Floyd the same problems, so again people will buy the fight solely in hopes to see him lose. Cotto vs. Martinez is just a fight you almost have to buy. Sergio is coming off of an injury and long lay off, while Cotto just had a very good performance and is moving up another weight class to try to be the first PR fighter to make history. Granted the UFC has a lot more fights, but to me it just seems to have lost some of it's allure. I know a lot of people who used to buy every UFC event and now they might buy one every 3-4 months, or not at all.

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