Oh NO!!! My secret is out! Whatever will I do, now? (woe is me) Although spending a great deal of time in my MA career studying kuk-sool, I also practiced some TCMA which included training drills very similar to those found in wing chun, which as far as I can tell, isn't too far afield from what the FMA do. I've also dabbled in western style boxing & western style wrestling (mostly freestyle, but also a wee bit of græco-roman). Add to all this some kempo (i.e. JMA) and since most folks look to asian cultures for the main influence on "martial arts", I guess you could call my experience "multi-cultural" as well. A long time ago, I did run across a savate instructor who seemed legit (he even spoke with a french accent!), but most of the stuff he showed me, while very good technique for fighting, didn't impress me enough to switch from the MA I was training in at the time (BTW, this was prior to my involvement with KSW). And while I'm obviously not an expert on french combat systems, I don't think that savate has all that much over any other form of kickboxing. Most folks who train in something rarely look objectively at their chosen art, but I thought someone such as yourself, Pugil (what with your multicultural background and all), could manage not to misinterpret some simple criticism as an affront to yourself personally. IOW, please try to unbunch you panties a little and focus on what I have actually said. I never said that TKMA had "sound & proven physiology", what I tried to commuicate was that I learned some simple mechanics of how the body works WHILE I was studying TKMA, and therefore put that particular method of combat *under the microscope* as to whether it taught legitimate skills or was full of poppycock. As for most of the basics WRT body posture that's taught in TKMA, I never had to tweak them or make any minor adjustments in order to make them *more effective* and why I stand by these basics when it comes to physical combat (FWIW, there are some postures in TKD that are kinda lame, but then these postures aren't adopted by kuk-sool). Apologies if I sounded like a snob, but I prefer to use terms which can be looked up and are used by scholarly types, as opposed to saying, "that little lumpy, bumpy that sticks out" when describing anatomical features. For the record, one does not need to "make" a blade edge with the foot, as it already exists. Try this experiment: look closely at footprints made with bare feet and you will see that unless the person has fallen arches, the "sole" of the foot (i.e the underside of the instep) does not constitute any part of the impression. The "blade edge" of the foot is represented by the thinnish line that connects the roundish impression made by the heel, with the part made by the ball of the foot & pads of the toes. Making contact with the part of your foot that sticks out the furthest, makes more sense to me than trying to use a part of the foot that's best explained as having a concave contour. Using the center of the heel is definitely the way to go if using a stomp kick (remember my 300 example?), as this allows your foot to be planted squarely on target, in similar fashion to walking on solid ground. In fact, if laying 2 cinder blocks on their sides and placing a board across them, the method you describe for breaking said board is exactly how I would recommend doing it. However with thrust kicks to the side, using the lateral yet CAUDAL portion of the foot (IOW, what would be closest to the target once you've chambered your leg for the kick) seems to be a legitimate method, especially considering that one of the best ways to lock the ankle from wobbling about, is to flex it at just such an oblique. I never said that there was. However, if your ankle is not *locked* into position, the full effect of your thrust could be compromised by the WOBBLINESS of said joint. Both of the scenarios you listed in this quoted snippet show a lack of familiarity, either with anatomy or of how to make a *proper* JOKDO. When using the JOKDO foot position, one never rolls the foot over as if trying to hit with the very edge of the foot where the soft flesh meets the rougher flesh (described as dark & white flesh in TCM). Instead, the idea is to use the underside of the foot albeit more to the lateral aspect, so "turning your foot over" with sufficient force to cause a sprain is highly unlikely, if not out & out impossible. As for injury to any of the toe knuckles, this would also be a rare occurrence, since said knuckles are comprised of either the joint where the metatarsal bone joins to the phalanges, or the interphalangeal joints themselves (most people's little toe sticks out the most at the proximal interphalangeal joint, and it often juts off to the side rather than straight up - a common feature found in "modern man"). But since the shape of the foot, going from heel to toe, arcs rapidly toward the medial aspect once you pass the tarsus/metatarsus division, and also since the focus of kicking with JOKDO is more toward the heel, the likelihood of hitting/damaging your little toe is pretty slim indeed (toes are nowhere NEAR the site of impact). Here's yet another graphic, which clearly shows the protuberance at the base (i.e proximal end) of the 5th metatarsal (note: this is NOT a knuckle joint nor does this "protuberance" stick out from the side of the foot once flesh, muscle, fat, sinew, etc. are added in place). Notice that if you draw a line vertically through the center of the talus (the major weight-bearing bone in the ankle as it continues upward through the leg), that it would bisect a line drawn from the protuberance already mentioned and the posterior/inferior aspect of the calcaneus (FYI- where these two imaginary lines intersect, is the focus of impact with the JOKDO). Here's one more image that helps to show where the focus of JOKDO should be concentrated when delivering a side kick (you, Pugil, want to focus on the tibial portion [light blue] whereas I choose the sural area [purple] - the plantar & saphenous parts on the bottom of the foot [yellow, green, & red] are much more sensitive than the remaining 2 parts, making them less advantageous for such forceful kicking): Seriously, the JOKDO foot position isn't near as complicated as you're making it out to be, and KSN_Princess is hardly a "beginner" (her MAP join date is MAR 2010, and IIRC she joined MAP right about the time she started her MA training in kuk-sool). So by my reckoning, she's been doing MA for over 12 months now (I'm pretty sure that side-kick and JOKDO were presented to her within the first couple of weeks of her starting out and that her instructor would not have her break a board without sufficient training beforehand). It IS nice to know that your obdurate display about this matter can be attributed to a desire to "protect the innocent." I disagree. You seem to be under a misconception that JOKDO is some over-exaggerated oblique tilting of the foot. Far from it. But locking the ankle using this foot position does make it more logical to focus on the lateral side of the heel, a smidgeon anterior to the center of the "ball" of the heel (FWIW, the center of the ball of the heel does not line up with the vertical center of the talus, instead it's somewhat posterior to it unless extreme dorsiflexion is present). To practice JOKDO, all you need to do is raise all of your your toes up (i.e. mild dorsiflexion) and then try to touch your pinky toe to the ground while leaving all the others up. Where you feel the most pressure on the bottom of your foot when doing this little exercise is where the focus should be when striking with JOKDO. It's true that when flexing the same muscles when not bearing any weight on the foot, it will tend to make you cøck your ankle slightly inward, but this should not be done to the extreme but rather just enough to ensure your ankle doesn't wobble excessively. IMO, this is just you being silly (for dramatic effect, no doubt). No one wants to screw up in a demo by not successfully breaking whatever they're attempting to break, and taking the time to "gather one's composure" certainly helps to build the suspense. Saying it's "ki gathering" is all part of playing the *mysticism* card, and anyone with a lick of sense knows this (but it WAS a nice attempt at subterfuge by you to mention it). Anyone who works combination striking drills, ought to be able to unleash a flurry of strikes as good as any other MAist, regardless of style.
These posts are getting longer by the minute, and so I'll leave you to have the last word (as you usually like to do, i.e. post 61) as I can't be bothered to pick through it all anymore. I will say one thing though, I once met a Karate instructor who seemed legit (he even spoke with a Japanese accent!)... I didn't take note of his damn name though!
Then pick through this: The proximal end of the 5th metatarsal is the farthest anterior aspect of the lateral portion of the foot, that should make contact when executing a TKMA side kick (i.e. a side thrust kick which relies on the JOKDO foot position). Or put in less technical terms, about midway from the heel to the toes along the outside edge of the foot, is as far forward as the foot should make contact when doing a JOKDO influenced side thrust kick. The knuckle of the little toe is on the extreme forward side of the foot (anterior aspect), so gracefully admit that you were wrong when stating that a kicker risked damaging the pinky toe knuckle if using JOKDO. And while you're at it, admit that spraining your ankle from turning your foot over on impact is also a far-fetched claim, seeing as how JOKDO focuses on the lateral portion of the caudal surface, and not the actual lateral surface of the foot (i.e. the underside of the foot NEAR the outer edge, and not the outer edge itself).
Dear Princess (and others – except Unk), Just so you understand fully where I am coming from on this 'striking part of the foot' issue. Many books on the martial arts illustrate the blade edge of the foot to be as I originally describe it. Please see the examples taken from the following books: Dynamic Kicks • Essentials For Free Fighting by Chong Lee [a Korean martial artist] Ohara Publications Korean Karate Free Fighting Techniques by Sihak Henry Cho [a Korean martial artist] Charles Tuttle Co Tae Kwon Do - The Korean Martial Art by Richard Chun [a Korean martial artist] Harper & Row Publishing This is Karate - Revised Edition - by Masutatsu Oyama [Korean-born martial artist who founded Kyokushinkai Karate] Kuk Sool - Korean Martial Arts by Dr. He-Young Kimm [a Korean Kuk Sool Master who later founded his own Martial Art 'Han Mu Do'] Andrew Jackson College Press Unk seems to have his own different interpretation of the knife (or blade) of the foot, but I can't find his book anywhere to see how he illustrates it. So my point to you is that there is a greater potential to injure one's foot or ankle by kicking with the part of the foot, as shown in these five books, than by simply kicking directly with the bottom of the heel. You will also note that in none of the illustrations do they show the big toe contorted up, and the little toes pointing down, as Unk suggests. In fact, one description suggests pointing the big toe down slightly. And you will also see that Kuk Sool Master Dr. He-Young Kim himself actually says to kick with the heel or the knife edge.
One way you have to look it up, the other way a common man can readily identify it! I prefer not to 'dress things up'. I prefer plain speech, whenever possible, and like to keep terms used by "...scholarly types..." to an absolute minimum. To me, a spade is a spade. To you, it's probably a 'personalised or individual digging and soil-turning-over implement'!
You don't HAVE to look it up, but if you WANTED to, you could. Using terms which already clearly define what you're talking about is not illogical in the least. And FWIW, I'm equally comfortable in using thigh bone, collar bone, breast bone, and shoulder blade instead of femur, clavicle, sternum, and scapula. Saying you should keep your thumb "on top of the hand" when executing a sudo (i.e. knife-hand strike) can be troublesome, since the "top" changes WRT how the hand is positioned (IOW, is it pronated, supinated, or in some other orientation?). Saying that the thumb should be pressed against the side of the palm, with neither palmar nor dorsal deviation is a more precise way of describing it, so long as your audience is familiar with the medical terminology (learning it is no more difficult than learning hangeul, which is also something that blackbelt holders in TKMA are expected to do). I don't have time to go into detail about the poor choices WRT graphics that was made with these "reference" books you use, Pugil, but note that the one by Dr. Kimm doesn't really contradict what I have said (I also don't have time at the moment to scan the KSW textbook, but it shows Sung Jin Su's foot with the big toe up and others down). And despite the illustrations you provided from those various books, I can still show that the same foot position shown in them can be used to support my view on how JOKDO should be used with PROPER biomechanics, as it IS all about where you focus your impact (note the red outlines - the view in the upper right corner is from the wrong angle & therefore uses a red arrow instead):
modern tkd simply uses the heel. more emphasis on pushing off the ground and locking out the hip before the heel is thrusted out. learned the variation on my first trip to seoul and it has never given me anything but great results.
I'm confused... In the method of delivering a side kick that I learned in kuk-sool as well as TKD (regardless of whether concentrating power to the heel or to the blade-edge of the foot), the knee & hip work in unison to thrust the foot out from the chambered position, so how would you "lock" the hip first if it's in motion until the leg is completely straightened out? :dunno: I do know of a version I learned for the side kick which comes from japanese karate, that I have come to call a *flippy* side kick. This version has you jut out your hip first and then the blade edge of the foot is whipped out & upward in an arc. It's not all that great for kicking very high and it's not anywhere near as powerful as the side thrust kick that I have come to appreciate & love so much, but it can be executed "in the blink of an eye." Hopefully this type of *flippy* side kick is not what you're referring to.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLaU4SmWMQw"]How to Do Basic Kung Fu : The Side Kick in Kung Fu - YouTube[/ame]
That's an interesting video, Pugil, but despite the guy saying you don't need to "chamber" the leg in order to produce power, he does chamber his leg when it comes time to lift that heavy bag off the ground with a side kick. By flipping his leg up laterally when standing still (or using a slight pivot), he indeed avoids chambering his leg to deliver a side kick. But by adding the skip step into the mix, he *inadvertently* chambers his kicking leg, FWIW (you can't escape the fundamentals of biomechanics when it comes down to "getting the job done"). The video does a good job, however, in depicting both types of side kick that I mentioned in post #75.
here i am doing side kicks in my living room trying to break this thing down!!!! first: hands up second: gauge distance third: smile fourth: lift lead leg fifth: turn hip(>45 degrees away from opponent) and pivot sixth: push off the ground with base foot seventh: lock hip and thrust heel at whatever you want to strike eighth: smile so feeling it out the hip and kicking leg work in unison, but the push comes first. besides the heel, exposing the back a little(pre-locking the hip) is a major difference from the way i first learned the side kick.
One of the most important points of the side kick or kicking in general is the position or rotation of the supporting foot. If you notice in the video, the Master when he performs the no chamber kick his supporting foot is only rotated about 90 degrees, in his power kicks it is rotated 180 degrees. This is important for the amount of power in the kick and also to get your hip in the proper position. Depending on what your trying to accomplish would determine the rotation. For point sparring where speed and control is optimal then perhaps the 90 degree rotation would suffice the danger IMO is injury to the joints because of misalignment of the body. If your breaking boards, as this is how this discussion started, you would need to rotate the supporting foot 180 degrees. I always insist on a rotation of 180 degrees of the supporting foot on all bent leg kicks, side, round house, hook, obviously not front kick.
How does it compare to the video provided by Pugil? After all, he didn't supply the link just for grins... Are you referring to item #6 from your list when saying "the push comes first"? The reason I ask is because ALL non-rotating kicks (where a support foot is on the ground) rely on this aspect for power. As such, the "push" is usually evident throughout the entire kicking maneuver, but mostly emphasized when the kicking foot lands on target (IOW, it's counterproductive to emphasize it at the beginning of the kick). To Obe: Considering what a stickler I've been WRT other aspects of the kick, I know it's a little out of character to say that [exact] foot position is probably not as important as you're making it out to be. Pointing the toes away from the target simply allow you to maximize your balance such that you can add more power to the kick as well as maintain your stability on the support leg. I also feel that while a 180° orientation may be great for side kick, it may not be as optimal for some of the other kicks you mentioned. Sorry, but discussing all these other kicks would REALLY be derailing the thread, so that's all I'm willing to say about it.
