Blocking with bladed weapons

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Kami_no_ken, Jan 16, 2005.

  1. Kami_no_ken

    Kami_no_ken Valued Member

    Hi, this is my first post, forgive me if an answer to this has already been posted, in western martial arts, when blocking with a bladed weapon, like swords, well, mainly swords, is it more practical to block with the edge or the flat of the blade?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    i depnds on the sword time persiod and who taught you.
    Both sides have valid arguments.
    Edge to edge
    Since you should be blocking or more corectly parrying with the stark, forte, the part clostes to your hand, it really doesnt matter if it nicked up becuase you arenusing it to strike but the part of the oppents swords that you are defending against is the part used to strike so it it nicked up its cuts less efectivly. Also the edge is usually the strongest part of the sword so teh stark can take some good abuse. And it makes your parry r block more of an ofensive action IMHO

    flat to edge
    swords are moreflexible alond the falt so they can take more abuse there. And you arent going to damge its edge by parrying with the flat.
     
  3. Kami_no_ken

    Kami_no_ken Valued Member

    Thanks

    Thank you, I was just wondering, no particular reason, I've just seen/heard of both methods and wanted to know an opinion from someone 'in the know'. Oh, also, which weapons in western society (medieval and renaisance) were most common/ more useful in self defence?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2005
  4. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    the most common
    KNife or dagger because everyone had one
    along with staves and cudgels

    And if you had sword you probably wore it around town.
    Kinda vauge I know.
     
  5. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Very good question!
    People disuss it constantly, and nobody is really sure!

    It could be summarized up the way Cudgel do, I'd just like to add that this quiestion is related to another eternal question; sharpness:
    1"Were medieveal swords sharp?"
    2"How sharp were they?"
    3"Where were they sharp?"
    4"How were they sharpened?"
    5"How was the profile on the edge?"
    6How was the quality of the edge?"
    7"Were they equally sharp at all times?"
    8"Were all weapons sharpened the same way?"

    Depending on the answers you choose on theese 8 questions, you'll get a different answer to yor question ;)

    Annother addition to Cudgels answer is the 3. alternative for parrying; neither edge or flat, but somthing inbetween! When you don't actually parry, but rather countercut diagonally, you'll see how the edges don't meet edge on edge, but rather "edgeshoulder" on "edgeshoulder" that way, the edge don't take far as much punishment as it would if crashing edge on edge. (It's a bit like having two cars colliding front on front beeing worse than hitting on the diagonal corners.) The edge would be even better off if it were rounded a bit (like an U-shaped edge rather than the standard knifeprofile "V"-shape. We really don't know wether the "U"-shaped edge is a modern invention, or wether it actually was in use back in the "good old days" (TM)
     
  6. CobraMaximus

    CobraMaximus Banned Banned

    AS far as i know you block with the flat, never the edge
     
  7. Kami_no_ken

    Kami_no_ken Valued Member

    Thanks again

    Thank you guys so much, I'll be hurling questions at you guys left right and center over the next few weeks so i apoligise if i annoy you guys :)
     
  8. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Thanks Stolenbjorn. I wasnt fully aware of the as you put it, edgeshoudler to edgeshoulder..
    yay for the poeple who know more than me.

    And answering queations is good its helps to spread the plauge..er. the joy.

    And her is a question for you. Why the curiousity? Cuz IM curious abut your curiousity.
     
  9. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I'll stick the head out and be the pretentious one and asume you mean me :eek:

    I really don't know why I'm becomming so enthralled by WMA. I've allways been interrested in weapons, history, archaeology, geography and anthropology, never in martial arts. I found the EMA-styles in my town rather wierd (white pyamases, screaming a lot and kicking towards heads :confused: )

    But when I discovered WMA, I saw how all my interests came togehter; i guess that's why I'm the way I am. (And it have made me improve my wiew on EMA as well.) Another important factor in my interest is that I was "going steady" with one of europes most knowledgable WMA'er; Colin Richards, and have been "iluminated" by his "wisdom". (If he ever reads this, he's gonna strangulate me using all of Fiore's more cruel techniques :D )
     
  10. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    gah not you kami_no_ken :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2005
  11. Rob Lovett

    Rob Lovett Valued Member

    There is another method, to not block with the sword at all, but to move away from the cut and to cut in time, this ideally should be the primary defense with swords.

    My Heirarchy of defense would be:
    1) Cut first
    2) Void the attack and cut in time
    3) Counter cut, looking to knock the attacking blade out of the way and at the same time cut your opponent. (neither edges nor flat meet directly)
    4) Deflect the attack and cut back. (this tends to be more flat on flat contact)
    5) Break the attack (counter cut at the attack) to knock it to the ground and then attack back).
    6) Block the attacking sword and maintain contact, winding your attack around the bound swords, this will be with either the edge or the flat but at the strong of the sword not the weak
    7) Block the attack and then attack back, this tends to be more edge on edge and in my opinion for medieval swordsmanship a poor method of defense, but needs must when you have no choice :). Incidentally this seems to be the main method of defense with army sabre techniques, probably because it is easily taught and learnt.
    8) Just Block
    9) No Block, no movement just die.

    Hope this helps.
    Incidentally check out the Exiles website we have an event that will cover many of these aspects with medieval weapons coming up in the beginning of Febuary.

    Regards

    Rob
     
  12. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    nice I like this heirarchy. Thats more or less how I was taught.
     
  13. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Never give me even an inch of oppertunity to blarb about myself :love:

    Rob Lovett: I too liked your way of ranking the different swordactions. I'd just like to add that personally I prefere the good ol' US Nuclear defence-slogan of the 50's; "Duck and cover". Therefore I'd like to add to your nr.2 option that while voiding the attack (that would be the "duck"-part) allso make sure that you have your blade in a possition where it can cover you if you get your voiding-action wrong or your opponent feints you.
     
  14. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member

  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi,
    No an expert in medieval but from my reading here are my thoughts.

    Avoiding blocks training would be because of low quality weapons for general soldiers. Nobles who could afford better swords could rely on them far more.
    Also other weapons would be difficult to block with a sword e.g. mace or morning star, which were common in medieval warfare.

    As for sharpness, yes they were sharp, armies usually travelled with blacksmiths and before battle you would take your sword to the blacksmith and get it sharpened. Or if that was none available the you would use a hard piece of stone for a rough sharpness.

    I know alittle about knife sharpening as I have to maintain my collection of japanese cooking knives. I find a 12 degree angle to the sharpening implement gives me the best edge. To keep a good edge I would give it a could of runs every time I use the knife, it really keep them ticking over nicely. The rule I always use is "If it cuts thought pork nicely, it will cut through a man".

    How a sword was sharpened depended on the type and quality. I guess this would be a question for an experienced swordmaker.

    cheers, The Bear.
     
  16. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I'm not sure if I follow you, but the main reason for not blocking (stop-blocking) is that it isn't as efficiant. A displacing/deflection-parry/parry-reposte(a sweet child has many names) give you a whole range of lightening-fast counters.

    Where's the source for this info? First off, the medieval period is pretty big (500-1500ad) and there is not one single answer that fits all that time in all of europe.

    Armies of the 1300-1500 didn't use that much swords, they relied on spears, hellebards, poll-axes, maces and daggers. The sword was reserved for the nobility that usually faced very well protected knights or increasingly protected mercenaries/men of war/peassants. When countering theese folks, a sharp sword doesn't nessecarily do you much good. Armies prior to 1300 faced less armor, and could very well have had sword that were very sharp. Of the 2000 registered swordfinds from Norway from dark-ages (500-1000) -a big majority are very sharp.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2005
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Stolenbjorn,

    Where's the source for this info? First off, the medieval period is pretty big (500-1500ad) and there is not one single answer that fits all that time in all of europe.

    Medieval Logistics
    As Applied to the Classes of Quartermaster Supply
    Quartermaster Professional Bulletin,Winter 2000



    How do you do lighting fast anything in armour and while fighting in ranks.
    men at arms simply had no space to do much other than block and chop. You are generalising sword fighting and making it all conform to your vision of battle in the medieval period. If you were a duellist and fought unarmour I would perhaps accept your point. Although I think you would be foolish to simply rely on always being able to dodge an attack.

    I agree that swords were not always used in the medieval period and I stated as such in my post.
     
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    First off, I'm not trying to "pick a fight" with you. (thanks for the scource, by the way)When asking where you have this from, it was because I'm curious, not to imply that you don't know what you're talking (writing) about.
    Secondly, I think the main reason for talking past eachother here is that it is a big period, period. I thought you were generalizing, and find it fun that you say I generalize.

    My original point was that there (probably; must not get bombastic here) have not been one single way of sharpening a sword, or a single way to fight, and I wanted to presize that after you posted this:
    Well, this have been my point all the time as well, as you can see when reading my earlier posts. I'm merely pointing out that it's much simpler, faster and safer to perform deflectionparries than stopping blocks. This I know from experience, and it would be just as easy to perform a deflection-block in formation as a stopping-block.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2005
  19. Rob Lovett

    Rob Lovett Valued Member

    OK, there is a big issue that has been hit here,

    fighting in large group vs fighting individually as part of duel (whether tourney or judicial combat etc) or for self defence - both (in fact three types but I am trying to simplify this a tad) sorts of fights are different in nature due to the environment.

    Most of the Medieval manuals concentrate on individual melee rather than group melees. We can see from the texts that those that are unarmoured rely on different distances to fight and include all those great things that have been talked about already, but armour really changes the nature of the beast, and as armour developed, it became more obvious. One medieval writer, I cannot remember who, bemoaned the fact that the youth of his day relied on their armour rather than their skill to keep them safe, and Fiore himself mentions in his treatise that you can be hit with a sharp sword whilst wearing armour and still win the fight, while without armour one hit and the fight is over. This can be seen in the methods of armoured combat where the approach is much more direct and become more akin to wrestling with a crowbar in hand, at least when fighting with sword, the sword is shortened to enable both ends to be employed, the hilt and the cross to be used as a blunt trauma weapon or as spikes, or as hooks, while the point is employed in a similar manner as a dagger, trying to wedge into this areas that are not protected.
    This is because a sword used in the classic manner is not going to get through the armour, armour was worn for a reason after all. This is why weapons were specially made to "beat" armoured opponents, such as the classic poll axe, and certain swords that were made heavier and exaggerated the features that would help compromise anothers armour, such as the acca spada - axe-sword.
    While wearing armour vision and breathing would be severely hampered but movement was not, offline movements, voiding could all still be used as could the basic defense that we have already described earlier, accept applied to the different weapons.
    The only real difference that we see with armoured combat is that the unarmed combat that is a feature of many of the medieval systems is tightly married in to the style to maximise the amout of tools that you are bringing to the job, and oobviously if you did manage to throw the other to the ground, then for a moment or too you will get a chance to hit them hard while they are on the ground.

    As for group battles one can only guess what they were like basing those guesses on written accounts. Here armour comes into its own, this is what it was made for, but things still do not change much from the individual style of combat apart from the fact that movement could be hampered by those surrounding you in the press of battle, voiding is no longer an option and anything goes to keep you alive at the end of the day, if the only option is to stop someone hitting you is with a static block then you will be sure that is what will be used, and hopefully while you are keeping one weapon busy, your mate beside you will be hitting the bloke trying to hit you.

    I have been involved in group battles, albeit, only in re-enactment, and a few times it has kicked off when there has been a crowd of us, but best not to talk about that. You really need to know that you can rely on those around you to do their job, and that is to keep the guy standing next to them alive by watching his back, if you do someone as you are doing that, that is the bonus. It really is team work, and this slowly becomes a feature of the later period army manuals that are produced detailing how this should be done, but it is something that I suspect that the greeks and the romans and the medieval dudes in an army knew only too well. If any of you are thinking this is a bit altruistic, in that you would not be so selfless as to look after someone else at the cost of your safety, think of it like this, that guy will look after you, if is dead or injured he can't do that! So to keep you safe, you have to keep your mates around you safe, if you manage to do that for long enough soon the guy opposite you will have less mates surrounding him than you do! As soon as that starts going on then it becomes a bit easier :)

    Hope this helps
    Regards
    Rob
     
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Depends.

    Lot of controversy on this one.

    My personal opinion is to block with the edge since that's almost always aligned with the strength of your hand-wrist-arm.

    Think of how you use a hammer. You don't hold a hammer and the try to drive nails with the flat (along your back-hand or your palm). You drive nails forward. Same with how you'd "powerstroke" a club or the sword (if you weren't doing a draw/push cut but even then you'd use the same line). Same goes for blocking. You want to be powerful to stop the attack and your wrist is much more powerful along one axis then the other.

    Further, most period manuals *appear* to show edge block (that I've seen - use however much salt is required).

    The Cateran Society has a position statement covering exactly this topic.

    http://www.cateransociety.com/edge.html

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk Lawson
     

Share This Page