Blindfolded Push-Hands

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Visage, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Sounds like good practice to me.

    The Bear.
     
  2. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Seems to be working quite well :)

    James
     
  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Bear - You wear blindfold so you can concentrate on feeling without developing a bad habit (which I've seen some people do) of closing your eyes.As far as I know this blindfolding is not an uncommon practice in various TC branches,and I've seen Duncan Leung's students practice their chi sao in WC this way. but the majority of practice should be w/your eyes open & not blindfolded,so you can deal with,as you say,the "noise of vision".(Nice term,btw).Same reason I object to playing music in a school so you don't hear the trucks going by.One needs to be able to learn, practice,and concentrate amid the common sounds of the world.
     
  4. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I just love 'reality' in the context of MA forums... ;)
    Here's a list of my personal "realities"...
    In "reality" however good you are you will probably get hit in any real fight.
    In "reality" you can't rely on being able to see your opponent clearly anyway - particularly if there is more than one.
    In "reality" conditions for fighting are never ideal anyway. I loved the question in "Qi" magazine where someone asked about traditional wing chun's lack of any ground-fighting training. The answer from Michael Tse was: "In Wing Chun we don't plan to go to the ground" - obviously never heard of curbstones or slippery pub floors then... :rolleyes:
    Anyway...
    In "reality" any training that increases sensitivity and awareness is useful at some level.
    In "reality" no amount of training, no matter how hardcore it is, will make you invincible.
    In "reality" all MA training is by definition controlled and fake - even full-contact sparring and competition have rules. One of those is always - NO eye strikes and all the really good folks I've met in MA have taught good ways to get eye strikes in at some point. Even a good bop on the nose may blind you for a while. Sure it would be hard to override the pain and confusion of sudden loss of sight, but you can train to improve the odds of survival in this way.
    In "reality" all MA is an 'odds game' you'r just trying to improve your chances by training, but it's never guaranteed.
    Anyway, in "reality" we were just larking about down the park, it's probably less than 5% of what we've done while training together and the principle reason of the material shown was for sensitivity in push hands rather than actual 'blindfighting'. We did do some actual light sparring with blindfolds a few times but I don't remember if anyone filmed it or not now.
    Clipology and speculation - the meat and two veg of MA forums eh? :cool:
     
  5. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    As far as I remember, we didn't record any of the blindfolded sparring :( We could though, I suppose :confused:

    James
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    In reality, if you don't want people to comment on it, don't post it! Especially if your ego is easily bruised.
    My comment on your part in the training is I hope you have learned to defend your centre line better because without Visage being VERY respectful you would have lost teeth.

    The Bear.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    A major principle of ALL martial arts is ICHI GAN. This means "first the eyes." USE them to "see" distance, timing and openings,and protect them (centreline) If you "take out the attacker's vision even for an instant. Then he should go down if you are any good. Same for you if you lose your vision.
    Training under the assumption that you have had your vision taken by the attacker is like training how to react to a knockout punch that has landed.

    Bottom line PROTECT your eyes rather than close them.


    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007
  8. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned


    I'll say again, blindfold work is a very minute part of our training. Once every few months, if that.

    I think it is fairly obvious to protect your eyes. This is just sensitivity training, taking away one of the 5 senses. It is not "fighting", although some of the skills practiced whilst training blindfolded can apply to "fighting" in various situations, namely, in occurences where vision is, for some reason, obscured.

    I'll say it once more. Blind fold work is a TINY part of our training, which consists of;

    Form
    Application
    Free-movement Push-hands
    Still footed Push-hands
    free sparring
    scenario work
    weapon defence

    These are methods to improve boxing ability, not boxing methods in them-selves.

    Regards,

    James
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Visage,
    I think you are missing what koyo is trying to say. His training method relies on the fact that ICHI GAN is central to ALL training. From Forms to Weapons defense and that when you remove this aspect from any area of training you are neutralising the value of the training. Therefore in his and my opinon, which may or may not be correct, any blindfolded training is virtually useless.

    The Bear.
     
  10. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    I reserve my right to disagree :)
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I respect that right.

    The Bear.
     
  12. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    And I respect your right to disagree with me :)

    I also respect that you respect my right to disagree :D

    James
     
  13. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Enough!! :eek:


    Youre bonkers today mate. :D
     
  14. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned


    Just today?? :eek: :D

    I've been buying baby toys, so I'm excited :D

    James

    PS: I respect your opinion :) :love:
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Jesus they let him breed!

    seriously, good luck mate.

    The Bear.
     
  16. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Cheers mate :)

    James
     
  17. Taijiman

    Taijiman Valued Member

    I've tried push hands blind once before (just closed my eyes though) and I admit it did help a little bit as a beginer. It was a one time deal, but I think it helped me better in knowing how certain close in techniques should feel. This was when I was watching a competition, helping a competitor I'd met their warm up for his matches. One of the teachers there was watching and suggested I try it. I was able to unbalance people quite a bit easier, but of course like pretty much all of you have said it's not very practical as a major part of training. I can see how it can be useful for beginners though, and as something to try on occasion.
     
  18. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    a.) I didn't post it (I wouldn't have done btw, because these kind of stupid 'clipology' conversations inevitably arise) b.) You weren't there and are looking side on so you can't see my centreline effectively enough to judge that! [classic clipologist's error] c.) Of course the training is respectful, we're not competing, just training with each other - there is a difference d.) I don't mind you commenting, but you're making uninformed statements about training you stated you don't understand and were also not present at... I suggest it may be you who doesn't like being questioned, not me! e.) Any macho kudos you're attempting to engender with your statements about broken noses, cut lips etc etc is wasted on me - had all of those in training and in real fights in the past - which is why I train safely to avoid having them again! durr
    There is a kind of mindless attitude prevalent in MA that sees those kind of injuries as somehow a good thing - they aren't. I know I could get hit - in some of the other clips you'll see visage tap his head on me to show a potential headbutt. But this is training not reality. In training we 'die' all the time, we 'kill' all the time.
    You can see we aren't fighting for real. Real fighting is something else altogether, but apparently you can't tell the difference. That's your problem.
    :bang:
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007
  19. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    codswallop of the first order imho :woo:
     
  20. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    I hope you bought yerself a dummy....give your other half some peace and quiet. :D
     

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