BJJ slamming vs wrestling slamming

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by roninmaster, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    The basic wrestling rule is that your knees have to come down before your opponent. (In Folkstyle. In Greco-Roman doesn't matter at all.) But the general guideline for all three is that you have to come down with your opponent. This is my son slamming one of his partners.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeQf7VPa588"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeQf7VPa588[/ame]
     
  2. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Here is another example of a legal wrestling slam.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUS8f9CvoLM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUS8f9CvoLM[/ame]
     
  3. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Ironically a lot of Judo Throws are legal in BJJ that don't even meet wrestling criteria. For example Seo Nagi is not legal in wrestling. Drop Seo Nagi is because your knees come down first.
     
  4. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    My Judo Sensei who also holds rank in JJJ and BJJ would not agree. Virtually the entire syllabus of BJJ is contained in Judo Newaza. The reason BJJ looks different is because of the rule set. Arm Bars, the guard, Triangles, Rear Naked Chokes, etc all come from Judo, which is what Helio was taught. There is a form of Judo called Kosen Judo that is more or less identical to BJJ.
     
  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    im not going to get into the history of BJJ because i've been through it a lot but technically OG BJJ didnt learn judo initially. at the time the BJJ orgs formed, judo was just coming to prominence in brazil as its own sport and BJJ was a splinter group of pre-olympic brazilian judoka who, before judo's formalisation in brazil, were called jiujitsuka

    Kosen Judo wasnt a style. it was a youth* competition ruleset (for schools an unis) pretty similar to the BJJ that had greater emphasis on groundwork and hence lead to athletes aiming to finish things on the ground (and develop tactics for this).

    the thing is, under a ruleset similar to BJJ or kosen judo - everything will eventually look like bjj or kosen judo.

    its why so many weapons styles look the same. why K1 competitors have the same skill set and only slight nuances in technique differentiate their base style. its why indian combative wrestlers, american and british catch wrestlers have the same skill sets.

    but i wouldnt* call escrima "european martial arts for Filipinos" or call catch wrestling "kushti for white people".
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  6. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Ok the video with the to ladies was interesting. However i didnt catch what the proper technique for dealing with a guard jumper was. It just looked like she was preparing for a slam but decided not do and just lowered her to the ground.

    That DQ video, alot of those i just cant see a way out of. Telling someone to just push the leg down and grap there lapel tells us nothing usefull. Their legs are still wrapped around you and locked, what would be the point of pushing there leg down? If they are locked together your not going to move that leg down?

    From what im gathering the "nice and honorable" way is to grab there leg and lapel and gently. lower them to the mat..

    Edit found one though i keep hearing from chadderz and others that you can turn this into a point in your favor, this does not look like a throw or a point in my favor. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSXIvsnvjRI"]How to defend Jumping Guard - Judo for BJJ - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Again ill ask, why should i give a fly crap about my opponent? My job is to beat him not cuddle him and play patty cake.. Why should i care about him? I dont want to be his friend i want to destroy him, to drive him before me and hear the lamentations of his women.
     
  8. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Basic human decency.
     
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I honestly just needed a reason to paraphrase that awesome quote.:evil:

    This thread is honestly why i wish CACC was bigger. Non issue in that circle..
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It'd be an issue if catch was as big as bjj.
     
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Not sure how, since it has been demonstrated in this thread that slamming is ok in wrestling.
     
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Because its your opponants who make you better, bjj is effective because you can train hard without too many injuries.

    Plus you dont seem to understand how guard opening works.
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    :yeleyes::(
    Actually no not all slamming is ok in wrestling, the knee coming down first has just been mentioned, as has the point about unnecessarily force and positional change.

    Theres also a lot of confusion here about the context of ibjjf rules, the full scope of bjj and how effective slamming is.

    Slamming - maps current version of restomping the groin.
     
  14. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    Frankly the kind of attitude you're pretending to represent is a lot more common among people who don't actually train and compete than those who do.

    There are- like in any sport- people who take it too far. But it's far from the norm. Go to a few BJJ comps and you'll find the people there, on the whole, are very nice.

    It's the kind of attitude you see in MMA all the time, two people beat each other into a pulp then shake hands and congratulate each other after. Which is far more common than two people continuing a beef.

    You really should dispense with the attitude about your opponents until you actually have opponents.
     
  15. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Incorrect I think you find its the real anti grapple :woo:
     
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah, that's two points right there, a solid pass is another few points and side control gives you about 8 points all in.

    I think you sound like someone who doesn't compete, or want to do BJJ/one of those macho white belts that don't make it to the third session.

    Guard passing is a skill. Guard slamming is not.


    Please show me a guard slam and tell me it doesn't look exsessive.
     
  17. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    To add an extra bit to Chadderz's post, pushing the leg and lapel works because the idea is to do it before they fully lock their legs around you. If they do get locked up fully then the same technique is actually a guard pass that works by putting pressure on the feet until they let go. Its one of the ways I used to pass guard when I still did gi where I would grab someone and lift them up then do the leg and lapel push until their guard broke.

    Its also one of the reasons good people don't jump: If you're not caught off balance its actually not overly difficult to stay to your feet when someone jumps guard. In fact, its a drill we used to do. That's why now you see people tend to pull guard which is an entirely different thing.
     
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    You didnt really answer my question. How is that considered a takedown? All he did was let him fall on his own. Regarding the two lady grapplers, please point out the technique she used. All i saw her do was lower her to the ground.
     
  19. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Thank you, that made it make alot more sense. Chadderz why on earth would you say that? I see the person across the mat from me as my enemy, its how i psych my self up. I honestly was trying to make a joke with my Arnold paraphrase. This does not make me a macho white belt. I did No gi for a while and was fully engrossed in Judo, but exigent circumstances have ended those classes.

    So were does it end? How many techniques will be removed or cuddlefied before BJJ is the grappling version of Taedo?(formerly Taekwondo)
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
  20. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    To counter the number of people guard jumping and try to encourage more of a focus on takedowns, as well as to stop people jumping guard while being taken down, they changed the rules to say if you have hold of your opponents' legs/pants when they hit the mat it counts as a takedown in your favour which is worth 2 points.

    So for example, when I said earlier that I often jumped guard as I suck at wrestling and get caught with singles easily, I might of jumped but because they had hold of my leg they always got two points for it.
     

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