BJJ slamming vs wrestling slamming

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by roninmaster, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    For a art that ridicules most others, and were most of its practitioners are worse then Jehovah's witnesses with regard to its near perfection for self defense i find this thread ironic.

    If you dont want slammed dont jump on my body, simple as that. If bjj is going to continue to use ridiculous techniques like guard jumping and then not allow a valid takedown counter to it then stop proselytizing to everyone about your combat awesomeness.

    Why should the person who is now supporting two body weights be forced to have full responsibility for the safety of the fool that jumped on his body?

    If someone guard jumps me on the the street why wouldn't i slam him? Why on earth would i ever bother with nicer guard passes in that situation? Why is it being taught to kids who cant break fall, and yes you can break fall from a fall like that, i have and im a grappling newb.....

    Simple problem has simple solution. Dont want to get slammed? Dont be a guard jumper. Dont want slamming? Ban guard jumping... It only works in bjj comps, it has no place in martial arts out side bjj comps and is useless for mma and for self defense.

    Also why does guard jumping look alot like a move i saw in BBT?
     
  2. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    I couldnt thank you enough for that statement.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    1) we know
    2) general roling /Comp rules thats a exactly what were talking about.
    3) because its a valid tactic in some (not all) situations
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    SERIOUSLY?! I've stated three or four times in this thread options other than slamming.

    People have guard pulled in MMA, more than once (where slamming is also allowed).

    You want slamming, go to a rule set that allows it.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    All the none training people think they can just slam there way out of guard.

    which is great because the leg hook and pendulum sweep will just be sweeter!
     
  6. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I remember a match at an interclub where I fought a guy who was lower level than me who was 15 odd kg heavier than me. He had good takedowns so I started jumping guard to avoid them and his only move from guard was to slam me. Even with it being my first experience being slammed and having it done by someone two weight classes heavier, it did nothing to me except get me a triangle every single time he went for it.
     
  7. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    First, calm down, take a deep breath, and get that giant chip off your shoulder. Go back and read through the threads on this forum and point out how much proselytizing is going on. I don't see much here or in the gym.

    I have no idea where you get your information from, but I rarely see BJJ practitioners ridicule others. Why? Because the constant stress testing of your skills on a daily basis shows you the mistakes you make the flaws you need to work on. Same is true for Judo, same is true for boxing and kickboxing, same is true for any art that competes.

    As far as slamming, you're also walking perilously close to a straw man here. Nobody really walks around pretending they're going to jump guard in a street fight. In fact most people competing in BJJ tournaments don't really think much about street fights at all. That kind of teenage nonsense isn't really all that relevant to athletic competitors. Pulling guard is one of many tactics- a single tool in your tool box- not a lynchpin of everyone's game.

    And like Fusen pointed out, we're talking about a competition rule set, which- and Chadders beat me to this- if you like slamming there's always MMA.

    Speaking of which, why even come into this thread with a 'realism' argument? There's no striking in BJJ comps. There's already a lack of realism that everyone is well aware of. BJJ competitions are for BJJ practitioners to test their grappling skills against other practitioners in a (relatively) safe environment. That's all, end of story.

    There are no more pure BJJ guys in MMA anymore. You have to develop a striking game to compete with well rounded fighters. All you have to do is turn on the TV to see it. We all know it. If you think otherwise you may want to check your source of information.

    Slamming is a legit topic for competition but outside of that its a moot point. Of course slamming is possible when there is no rule set. Nobody said otherwise.

    As far as competition is concerned...

    Personally I'd be fine with it, but probably restrict it to the higher belts, kind of like leg locks.
     
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Never mind, just realised Kframe does a certain non-sport related style and probably doesnt understand sporting tactics

    MaxSmith makes better points than me
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  9. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    BJJ competitions were created in their modern form by Rolls precisely in order to not create horrible habits for actual fighting. It's not arbitrary at all, it was meant to serve a particular purpose in developing skills.
     
  10. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    its outgrown that initial idea though.

    people who compete in BJJ are everyone from kids, casual business men, the elderly etc.

    judo was created for pretty much the same reason but look at it now - casual competitors everywhere
     
  11. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    I think that same process is true of almost all arts. It starts out as a solid fighting platform and gets a reputation then other people join because of that reputation but don't want to put in the effort/take the risks that the original guys did to get that reputation. The result is that over time he styles become less aggressive, less focused on combat and more accessible for casual participants.

    That doesn't affect the potential of the art and there will still be a minority who do train with a martial focus but as a whole the art tends to move away from that once it becomes popular.
     
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    exactly. its not watering it down, at its core, its still combative like TKD/Karate/judo/boxing/wrestling but there are some bits that are less combat orientated for inclusion

    its the only reason i like how BJJ has split into 3 camps (although many teachers and classes dont differentiate despite high level practitioners differentiating):
    BJJ (for bjj), MMA and combatives.
     
  13. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Not any more... I went back to them for a bit but left due to no sparring. Before that i was in Karate/judo(as i have laid out before on this forum) but the school went out of business. However since the judo re opened under a new person im thinking of going back but i am also considering a bjj/mma place. In the mean time im going back to my old boxing coachs new gym and will be restarting my boxing..(my first art)
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  14. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    If it is so easy to defeat a slam why are you and others complaining about it and want it banned?

    One of my points which was made by others but ignored, is why should the person who got guard jumped be made majority responsible for the safety of the person who jumped on him? The onus should be on the guard jumper not the Jumpee.

    With regards to counters, i dont like complicated things. I think simple is the way to go and the simplest answer to that problem of someone jumping on me is to slam them.

    I would be curious about these other counters though, i have never seen them.
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think we need to differentiate between guard pulling and guard jumping.
    I suppose guard jumping is a variety of guard pull but there are certainly safer ways of pulling guard than others.
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think BJJ should look at slams in the same way it should look at striking.
    It may not include them in general rolling and competition but BJJ guys should absolutely be aware of them if they interested in BJJ beyond just the mat or competition arena.
    I can't help but be amused when a guard jump goes wrong and the jumper KO's themselves. :)
     
  17. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    No but he is right. It doesn't go on here quite as much though there are people who get incredibly defensive if you ever say anything negative about BJJ. But you see it in a lot of places. The BJJ marketing machine very jealously guards its position as the new "ninja". It's why you see them do damage control videos when Josh Barnett submits a BJJ guy who had not been submitted in years and pushes Catch wrestling. A lot of money is wrapped up in BJJ's "invincibility" that hasn't been true in MMA for years now.

    This has been less of a problem, but it absolutely still goes on. The kids taunting this kid for being a "kickboxer" comes to mind. But everywhere else on the web and particularly in the old days.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwshvo_ralek-gracie-school-fight_sport

    The problem is, the marketing machine continues to refer to BJJ as "The most effective self defense art..." I went to a Royce Gracie seminar and during the Q&A period he pointed out that tournaments were ruining BJJ. I completely agreed with him. He pointed out that a lot of the techniques that work in tournaments get people into habits that will get you destroyed in MMA and in self defense and that it is causing a watering down of the art similar to what happened to TKD.

    The rules for "combat sports" should help people train for combat. Or emulate it as close as possible. Slams are legal in other grappling arts and the rules to govern them are safe. Martial arts suffer from their competition rule sets. When Kano made Judo he set out to create a rule set that would let you practice useful self defense in a sport setting. And that's why Judo beat JJJ when competitions were held to see which art would be used for the police force in Japan. Now Judo is a shadow of it's former self with more and more ridiculous and unnecessary rules changes.

    Because BJJ still markets itself as a "realism" martial art. And in many cases marketed as "the best" realism art. Sure, test your grappling skills. I know my kids will never be taught to jump guard on someone because I don't want them to get into the reactionary and muscle memory habit of begging their opponent to slam them.

    The people marketing BJJ should probably check their information too. And explain why only one of the current champions comes from a BJJ background and he never uses it anymore. (Aldo). I think Royce is right.

    Just use the same rules and guidelines that my son has been using since he was six. He loves slamming and has never injured anyone. Wrestling has been doing this for decades.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  18. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    There is definitely a section of bjj -cough- Gracies -cough- that push the bjj superiority and street style bollocks but today its not the majority I don't think. I'm increasingly meeting people who are critical of GJJ and its marketing
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  19. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    I have to say that this is something that really made me respect Royce. For one thing his specific GJJ incorporates striking and dealing with striking even at the kids levels. His seminar was extremely reasonably priced and the monthly fees at his chain school here in Michigan are literally the lowest I have ever seen for BJJ anywhere. I have been charged as much as $150 a month per kid. His school charges a wopping $40. And the crazy thing is the quality is still there. The kids at this school routinely win gold at Naga and other tournaments. But they are trained the whole time the difference between tournament and non-tournament.
     
  20. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Watch how Renner buddies up with Ronda Rousey so the marketing machine can take some credit for her success even though she was doing Judo Newaza (Basically Just Judo) and submitting people since she was seven and long before UFC 1.
     

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