BJJ slamming vs wrestling slamming

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by roninmaster, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    To be clear here, I feel that slams should be treated the same they are in wrestling and there are rules for that too. (Chief among them is you must come down with the person you are taking down.) My biggest problem comes from people leaping onto someone to guard pull and then not being happy about the results when the other person dumps them for it. We don't let kids do flying arm bars (for good reason) but for some reason it's legal to jump on someone wrap your legs around them and put all of your weight on them, and is for some reason not legal for the other person to take you down for it.

    If you want to keep kids safe, don't teach them to do something that constantly puts themselves in danger. Some of these kids get dumped completely by accident. When you jump guard pull on someone you are begging them to bring you down. You should not get into the habit of using techniques that you are relying on rules to protect you while using.

    But your right, it's not wrestling. And the rules in BJJ are doing a lot of damage to the abilities of the athletes in question when they transition out of it. When we went to the Royce Gracie Seminar he said he felt that tournaments were ruining BJJ. I don't think he is far off the mark.

    http://fightland.vice.com/blog/are-jiu-jitsu-tournaments-to-blame-for-wrestlings-dominance-in-mma

    As for keeping kids safe, that is obviously one of my motivations as well. And I don't think it keeps your kids safe to teach them dangerous and foolish strategies that are going to get them hurt by anyone competent, or when they are not in a match with a referee.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUS8f9CvoLM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUS8f9CvoLM[/ame]

    Not sure where you get this assumption that it's being done with the hope of injuring your opponent. Like the slam in the video above he didn't drop that kid intent on hurting him. He went down with him and some care is generally taken on the way down to ensure nobody gets hurt. I have seen people slam people hoping to create space so they can escape something. In MMA sure there are guys hoping to knock people out with slams, but none of the wrestlers I know do this intent on causing injury.

    I don't like the suggestion that it's just trying to muscle out of a technique either, if your technique is that easily countered you need to change your technique. Not getting into the habit of letting the rules and the referee protect you.
     
  2. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    And I'm saying that if people trained to defend against it and get the points then less people would pull guard :p
     
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Why aren't people training to defend it? It happens all the time.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Have you noticed everyone who is struggling with the concept of jumping guard are also people who dont train BJJ.

    Greco doesnt allow leg contact, freestyle doesnt allow subs, judo doesnt allow leg pick ups, prolonged newaza or two handed grip strips, kb doesnt allow elbows, mt doesn't allow candy in place of glass, yadda yadda.......
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    We work passing from the pick up position all the time, we also work stopping the pick up, and dropping down to open guard as a first option.
     
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The different is, I understand all the concepts that judo doesn't make use of apart from jumping guard which is just a silly thing to do. It basically says 'I suck at stand up grappling so I'm picking up my ball and going home'.

    I've trained with BJJ guys who do it in randori - the number of times I've ended up standing there with a guy wrapped around my body and absolutely nothing (legal) I can do is infuriating. But slam them once and they don't do it again.
     
  8. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    I train BJJ, and I agree with Holy, guard jumping is a bad habit.
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If the intent isnt to hurt, then there is no need to slam, either work standing opening or drop the kneeling keeping good posture and work passing from there.

    If you cant do that, why compete in BJJ?
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Learn how to open guard, if you slam me during a standard class then your stepping outside of the rules, and that means your going to sleep.
    If its during judo randori then they should be told not to do it, if its during bjj rolling then its a part of the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I agree its a bad habit, thats why I can counter it, and dont use it as a first line, but its apart of the game, banning it or relying on attribute based tactics like slamming is a very very poor idea.

    Have you tryed to slam your coach yet?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It was stand up randori, 3 times in a row I put him down and we stood up and reset. The fourth he got put down hard - partly because I was tired, but partly because he was wasting my training time being a jerk.
     
  13. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    That seems just as stupid to do.
    It's all like: You hit me, so I do the same, because then it's right.

    Personally I never got that thinking. I prefer the moral highground and want to be able to say: Well, if you can't play the rules, fine. I'm better then that though and will still go with them.

    But, hey, that's just me ^^


    And now I have a rather stupid question: What, if someone jumps the guard on me (or however it's phrased, sorry) - and I can handle the weight and fall right onto him (as in: without control)?
    Isn't that comparable, because the other guy could fall on his head as well?
    Or is it mainly about the force needed in slamming someone?

    Btw: I agree with whoever said, that you don't slam people with the intent of injuring them.
    Especially if it's a legal move, then it seems to be just as normal a move as any other.
    No one would say: "He used the armbar, so he could injure his opponent", right?

    Or am I missing a point here?
    If you - please enlighten me ^^
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    In judo or bjj?

    If bjj thats not wasted time, he's worked guard pulls, you've worked resetting to the ground.

    You sound annoyed because you throws were shut down.

    If its a judo class then he's being a jerk.

    If you get dominant inside grips its much harder for him to jump guard.
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    My view, its normally newbies who slam, usually when a higher belt is rolling lightly with them, if you do it, you need to learn there are consequences for your actions. Otherwise other people will be getting injured.



    Now if you pull guard you want to drag them down with you, if they fall on you its your own fault. But if they purposly try to injure you by slamming then there an idiot.

    There is no halfway point with a slam, putting someone down is not slamming someone.
     
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It was Judo - if it was BJJ it would be fair enough (as much as I hate it).

    I asked him 3 times (with varying degrees of politeness) to knock it off, he didn't, so I put him through the mat. It was probably the wrong thing to do, but he was so smug about it and it was such a monumental waste of both of our time.
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You did the right thing.

    If it helps I never guard jump or pull in judo, but I do yoko tomoenage, and sumi gaeshi too much when im tired.
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Isn't it the job of the instructor to police the class?
     
  19. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I was as much as visitor as a BJJ guy so I wasn't going to kick up a fuss. In the coach's defence it was a really busy mat that night.
     
  20. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Slams are the point here right. I think slams rule, we have a few we Use in Zanshin, we also allow slams during sparring, although they are controlled. I can understand how allowing them in a tournament would shut down a JJ player, its kinda sad though.
     

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