But you ARE limiting your training!! How is it random & unscripted when you know an attack...any attack is coming!? All you have to decide it whether its a kick, punch, wrist grab ("no..no...grab it like this...") etc etc...they attack & leave the arm there for you etc etc...there is no resistance to your defending attack etc etc...there is NEVER a dummy/feint/combination/counter in situations like that - so how exactly does it relate to realism? If you want to take it further, try the old "kato/clouseau" thing. Have someone in your club randomly attack you at some point in the night from the front or side...with gloves (or without) if you just want to try your grab defences & see how you defend these "unscripted" completely "random" attacks then.
point a) should be renumbered point e). To get there, you have to defend (a), close the distance (b), control your attacker (c), and isolate the arm (d) Now rephrase Oversouls question and your response? How confident are you that in a "live" situation that you will be in the position where you can even move to e)? Sure if you get there, f) can follow, and training set positions/reflex randori can give you the muscle memory for the finish. But its missing such a large part of the rest of the game. However, if you don't spar to set up the first position in a realistic, free format, full sparring session, how much use is the ude gatame ude kujiki?
You seem to be assuming no resistance or follow up attacks are being offered during our training, which is not true. If you move the wrong way, or don't move in time, you DO get smacked/thrown/whatever. There is no "no...no, grab like this". If you can't perform a successful technique for the attack, you get pulled to the ground, or hit or whatever. And no, uke doesn't just 'give you' the technique. The question is about full contact randori/sparring, which we don't do because at that point - two opponents facing off, ready for a total freefight, you are fighting and it is no longer self defense. If I ever get someone dancing around me with his dukes up, I'm walking/running away or getting help.
You are forgetting one response that you aren't training for in these situations & it goes right back to the basics of the reasons for competing...what if you freeze because you've never faced a situation of aggression? And furthermore what of the other options? what if you run but are chased? What if running away isn't an option? Its very difficult to simulate the feelings and responses in these situations unless you've experienced it...and then we are back full circle...you need experience in addition to the knowledge you accrue in the "safety" of the dojo. How do you get that experience?? For the answer, have a think what some of us have been suggesting? I'm not saying you have to train or incorporate competition in your training...each to their own & I hope you all get what you need out of your training, but don't kid yourself that what you learn will work until you test it. Knowledge without experience is purely theory
Aha, I actually agree with you on that. I have been in one or two alterations and to be honest the adrenalin affected me quite heavily. I managed to get out of them ok (even got a hand-elbow throw to work during one of them - the other time i just grabbed the guy and we swung each other around a bit. Both times was a result of uninvited 'rowdies' rocking up to either my own or a mate's party) but i think i could have performed much better had i been more used to such situations. But this is a problem i recognise within myself and take actions outside of class to remedy it - mostly in the form of finding other partners to train with, most of whom have had experience boxing or other martial arts. Other people aren't affected by the adrenalin so they do not have this need. So yes I agree in priniciple but i think it's up to the individual to asses how and to what extent they need to solve the problem.
Exactly!!...and you are learning from it & gaining experience in addition to dojo knowledge, which is what I've been suggesting to the other guys Absolutely everyone is affected by adrenline. Its only by exposing yourself to it & getting used to it that you can get used to it & deal with it. And that doesn't happen in the dojo...hence the need for the pressure testing. Agree totally, as long as these individuals realise there is a need to find a resolution & not just bury their head in the sand with silly throwaway phrases like "fight...opponent...sigh"
Yeah, you can always just run instead of fighting - but what if you're holding someone off while your wife and kiddies run? Or any other similar scenario. Pacifistic ideals should not be an excuse to have incomplete SD skills and training.
In general i don't think you're ever going to experience true aggression from a MAist other than maybe in MMA which seems to have a different calibre of person studying. adrenaline in a street situation would probably go through the roof as you are unprepared to deal with an aggressor and a fear factor kicks in (if it doesn't you're possibly too blinking sure of yourself). in competition you are prepared to fight by choice. BUT, as i don't have the opportunity to 'spar' at my current club, yet have come from a sport jitsu club (judo based) i am still seeking to 'test' this style for myself. i joined with someone else from my former club and we miss the competition element very slightly and have talked about doing some randori. the problem is, it's very difficult to incorporate what we do into a 'competition'. most of the moves are from grabs and punches resulting in arm locks, throws and pins. i can't put my finger on why i'm finding it so difficult to put what we do into some sort of competition. maybe that's why they just don't do it. if anyone has any idea i'd be glad to hear. btw, how do you do multiple quotes and answers?
I'm not a pacifist. But I, for one, don't feel any particular obligation to have complete self defense skills and training. No one has ever randomly attacked me and I don't expect that anyone will.
And there you have the dilemma. Learning a technique in the way it is taught in "trad" jujitsu does not directly correspond to application of that technique in a "live" situation & until you try to spar/compete & apply it people simply don't realise that! Yes, it works for muscle memory & the correct positioning for the technique, but it doesn't correlate to direct application. Traditional training is missing a huge part of the jigsaw. Using the example of Ude gatame ude kajiki before, all you do in class is practice how to lean into the lock & apply pressure to the elbow - which is great for perfecting the correct leverage & control - but what you don't learn is the set-ups & entry & how to isolate the arm (because its already been given to you by a punch). The only thing that definitely works is to work on specific moves from set randori positions - find what works & what doesn't! Start from grabs & work your way up. Then start to understand how moves flow from one to the other & what combinations of locks and throws work together... Other than that, it means taking your time to study what jujitsu has to offer. It works the same way as training BJJ or Judo or other "sporting" arts...and that means practice/drill/spar/practice/drill/spar/compete & repeat. cut & paste
I hope you are right, but what will you do when the rain comes and you have no umberella? Believe me, random attacks are not as rare as you think (but not as common as people who espouse "str33t fightin'" suggest). "It is better to kep an army for 10,000 days even though you only need it for one" - Sun Tzu
If someone attacked me and was dumb enough to give me a chance to counter or escape but also good enough to beat me, I'd just have to console myself that I should have been more paranoid. I think the odds are against all three of those conditions being met is pretty good...
I have been randomly attacked & maybe that's why I advocate preparation and gaining experience so highly Its nothing to do with whether someone is dumb enough or good enough to beat you, it can be simply down to the fact that they've had a bad day & one too many beer. They can be the worst fighter in the world BUT anyone can throw a haymaker...and if you freeze up cos you've never trained properly...a little bit of aggression and a dose of adreneline and things are a mile away from the happy dojo training people are used to You won't know how you'll react until it happens, so let's hope your army is fed as Hannibal so succinctly put it.
BJJ > Judo > JJJ Having done all three I can say BJJ has a HUGE leg up on the other two. Now before you get your panties in a twist you should read up on me. I am a Nidan in Judo and VERY proud of it. I consider myself a Judoka that does BJJ (I'm a purple belt at that) and I have done both koryu and gendai JJ. I often joke that what I do is Brazilian Judo. The reason I say BJJ has a huge leg up because its constantly gives feedback to the practioners on their skill level and their ablility to apply them on a fully resisting opponent. Judo does this as well and I still think Judo is one of the best SD arts out there but BJJ is much better suited for women and pple of smaller stature because they are more likely to be on the ground against a larger opponent. Also don't mistake BJJ for only being ground it has its share of SD similar to Judo's Goshinjutsu. Classical JJ is hindered by the fact that many of the methods are outdated and pple don't do battle like they did then. Intresting read here: I find this interesting because it was written at the turn of the 20th century. So bickering over what methods are best is as Japanese as it is western. Even Maeda, Judoka who help found BJJ, was a student of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu but considered Kodokan Judo the best art around. So my suggestion is that one looking to get into the JJ world should start with BJJ then go to Judo and then look to JJJ as a refernce and he may get some more tricks to add to his arsenal. PS I think BJJ can be called a BATTLEFEILD art now since it has been used sucessfully in Iraq, Afgahn, and Kosovo as the foundation for the Modern Army Combatives Program.
I need some input it deals with the same subject but as of this last year moved somwhere there is no one to train with in BJJ or JJJ or Judo. I would in essence have to drive about 300 or so miles not up for that but can one hone there skills in BJJ prferred without an opponent or is the read that important off of another(opp.). Meaning the feeling of the movement they might be needing to do that will feed my whatever i chose to naturally do. Right now all i can do is keep practicing the same techniques with the dump. Do feel that connecting to center feels like there is nothing there when alone. Still trying to find somwhere to train here.
Try to find some friends to train with and set up your own training group. Find some good instructional DVDs and work through all the techniques on them. Then club together and go to a seminar every so often, or pay someone to visit every couple of months. That should give you plenty to work on in the interim. Lots of people have started that way. We can't all live in California!!
Yeah.. this is never how it's worked in my experience, the stress you experience in both situations is the same, I guess your body only lets you experience so much stress, that or for some reason your thinking in a competitive fight doesn't take into account all the rules that are there to protect you. Funny that. I have been threatened with a weapon before, it didn't completley paralyse me, I didn't choke up because of some extra dump of adrenalin or anything like that, I stayed calm, got the guy to put the batton away and talked my way out of the whole thing without huitting anyone and with no particular avoidance or de-escalation trainning at the time. What I will say though is that the stress from the encounter lasted longer, I had the shakes afterwards for a good few minutes.
It's a shame but I'm really beginning to think that not many BJJers on forums show signs of humility or humble respect for practitioners of any art that's not their own. 'BJJ's the best, yours is rubbish, BJJ is the only art for self defence, Billy Bob Gracie defeated 10 Hapkido guys with one arm tied behind his back, etc etc....' Try out various schools, see what you like, see which teachers you like. You could be studying 'the best' art in the world but it won't mean squat if your teacher's an idiot.
Tolerance can only be defended by an objectivist viewpoint. As such, holding tolerance as the only absolute good is flawed logic. This would apply here as well as in ethical theory.
If people have good reasons to support their opinions then it's not arrogant. People all have different opinions about what art is best including TMA and - dare I say it - JJJ guys.
