Basic strength training terms & concepts

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Knight_Errant, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Colucci

    Colucci My buddies call me Chris.

    If the volume (total sets + reps done) is high enough, yes, size will follow. McG's right, Tate and the Westside Barbell crew are known for being big, strong mofo's. But Chad Waterbury is also a fan of working with low reps, heavy weights, many sets (10+ per exercise is common). As seen here

    P.S. - Wesker, there are no dumb questions, only dumb trainers. :D
  2. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member


    Power does have to do with Mass.

    I was taught E=MC2 In relation to this. where E is the energy of the strike, M is the mass, and C is velocity (squared)

    so, if you double the mass in the equation, the energy E will double.
    but if you double the speed, because that figure is then squared, you get four times the energy.

    is strength really that important, and in particular if it is at the cost of speed of delivery?

    for example what kind of weights do you think Bruce lee was lifting for strength? i dont know if he ever went to a gym?

    ..he may have, like i said, i dont know, but i dont think he lacked power for his size, and i think it was speedwork he focused on?
  3. Cownose

    Cownose Valued Member

    Strong muscles make you faster. Bruce Lee did go to the gym, and he did lift heavy weights.
  4. animefreak88

    animefreak88 Valued Member

    the equation E=MC2 is a chemistry equation, where C is the speed of light and M is the mass defect of when subatomic particles form an atom. The equations derived from Newton's laws of motion relate to strength training more. Mainly the following two equations:

    F=ma where F is force, M is mass of the object in question, and A is the acceleration of that object.

    and the algebraic manipulation of this equation also gives us the equation
    a=F/m where a is still acceleration, F is still force, and M is still mass. More acceleration equals more speed. as shown by the first equation, more mass equals more force. Now, granted, acceleration may not increase if the mass increase balances the force increase (as shown through the 2nd newton equation), but acceleration at the least won't decrease and you'll still have more force which is more strength, and that's more strength without losing speed. But, by lifting heavier weights, the muscle fibers recruited tend to increase force production more than mass, so both acceleration and strength increase.

    as long as you stretch properly, strength training will not decrease speed, and will more than likely increase it.

    as for bruce lee, yes he was an avid exerciser who did weightlifting, cardio, and speed drills with his techniques. but i don't recommend training like he did, mainly because how he avoided overtraining is beyond me. check out the stuff in Knight Errant's links, and stick to that stuff.
  5. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    hmmm. I always like it when someone is better informed than me.

    so, what would be the effect on impact energy of doubling speed, and then mass and measuring impact force? i cant do the maths, it's midnight :)
  6. blessed_samurai

    blessed_samurai Valued Member

    I've posted the link a few times...Bruce Lee DID NOT lift heavy weights. I wonder if that poor guy will ever get any rest.

    I think it's amusing that a dead guy is our link to what is correct and what is not, expecially since exercise science has come a long way since Bruce's time.
  7. MattN

    MattN Valued Member

    I never cared much for those physics formulas. Woo! force equals blah blah blah, how does that help you?
    like in BeWater's sig
    "Get stronger and everything else will take care of itself." - Dave Tate.

    Sticky this thread! pleeeeeeeeease
  8. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    I vote sticky.

  9. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Totally baffles me mate :confused:
  10. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Stickied - and title changed to somehting more applicable.
  11. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member


    im sorry i dont know what sticky means. but a couple of things?

    i know exercise science has come on a long way since BL & i don't idolise him, nor base my training on him in any way, hence my lack of info about his training habits..

    ... he was just a good example that sprang immediately to mind of speed being the essence of power in punching.

    i'm no expert in his training regimes, but it strikes me his power was far more a product of the speed of the blow, than of mighty weight lifting muscle strength.

    And as for a basic formula, if it indicates that improving speed will have a larger increase in the power of the strike than increasing the weight (strength) behind it, I fail to see how you think that can't help you?

    the analogy that springs to mind now is the old "would you rather be hit by a truck doing 5 miles per hour, or a car weighing one tenth of the truck, but doing ten times the speed?"

    still each to his own.
  12. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Speed is a factor of how much force a muscle can exert and how quickly.

    The "how much force" factor is called strength.

    Strength is proportional to the cross sectional artea of the muscle fibres.

    Compare physiques - Olympic sprinter and marathon runner. Do you see where this is going?
  13. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member


    Good point, and well made as usual…

    ..And sorry to hark on here, but I am genuinely confused about this, and always like to keep one eye on the bigger picture and the overall principles of what I’m working towards, rather than wake up one day an extremely strong but end-result compromised individual, through incorrect training.

    In essence you’re “preaching to the converted” as I do once-weekly “strength-only” training, along with twice weekly “complex” gym training sessions based on Military circuit-training techniques and weights, for explosive power, plus the cardio work (at least 3x 5mile runs per week, of either base cardio (steady) or intervals combined with distance work etc.

    I am playing Devil’s Advocate here to an extent, because I always wonder about the scathing attitude of the Chinese for example (my SPM Sifu, for one) to Gyms and Gym-Built muscle in general. The strength & power training done in SPM for example is achieved in Power-Conditioning drills and is essentially of an endurance nature (and I know people are offended by that word) but they definitely work.

    I have watched my SPM Sifu demonstrating Chi Sau and conditioning exercises against hugely strong guys ( in the western sense of the word ) ..who with all their strength training were scarcely able to move the arm of the much smaller guy, and who wouldn’t even have time to blink, never mind flinch, had he decided to take them out.

    But I find I have to work really hard to even maintain current speed levels, never mind improve, when I’ve been doing strength work. It may be an illusion, but that’s how if feels?

    And coming back to the speed thing once more, as correctly pointed out by Animefreak88, i was on the wrong formula. i needed this one, for kinetic energy, contained in a moving object. although the gist is the same. It's explained thoroughly on this site

    but i''ll go into it a little for anyone who can't be bothered to look, as below..

    EK = (1/2)mv2

    Example Calculation

    How much kinetic energy does an object have if its mass is 5.0 kg and it is moving at a speed of 4.0 m/s? Formula for kinetic

    EK = (1/2)(5.0 kg)(4.0 m/s)2

    Plug in values for mass and speed.

    EK = 40 J

    have a play about with the figures and you'll see that kinetic energy gains made by speed increases have a doubling up effect in final energy contained.

    &... so i wonder if the abilty to bench 150kg a few times is really what I need to develop more power in a strike, or should I be repeating the action a thousand times until my arms feel like lightening fast springs from doing that exact movement until it feels like that's what my arms were hung on my body for?

    I do see your point in that bigger muscles should be able to accelerate my fists to greater speeds, but it doesn't feel like that, it feels like you have to cncentrate on letting go the of the strength and releasing the muscle tension completely to get the real speed and hence that devastating impact available to even slightly built guys who have the technique correct, but have never been in a gym in their lives?
  14. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    The problem being that speed is actually generated by the muscles- smaller, weaker muscles= less speed= less kinetic energy.
    What's more, big, strong guys have this annoying tendency to have good technique.
  15. Colucci

    Colucci My buddies call me Chris.

    First off, Mantis, you're waaaaaaaaaaay overthinking this. The moment we start discussing physics equations in relation to weight-lifting, something's gone wrong. There are other solutions, and they don't require calculators.

    Secondly, you're crazy font and color hurt my head to read, thanks. :rolleyes:

    Neither, actually. You want to be lifting a moderately-heavy (8-10 rep max weight) at an explosively fast tempo, for a whole bunch of low-rep sets. For example, let's say your maximum bench press is 200 pounds. I'd suggest using 120 pounds for 8 sets of 3, moving the weight crazy fast on the positive (when you lift the weight). That will recruit the proper muscle fibers necessary to develop truly explosive strength and speed.

    To steal an analogy from Louie Simmons: If I stand in one spot and throw a bowling ball, a baseball, and a ping pong ball, which will go farthest? The bowling ball contains too much mass to generate decent speed. The ping pong ball is too light to allow us to apply the most force. The baseball is the best compromise, we can apply maximum force (strength) and that will generate maximum results (distance/speed).

    Similarly, if we take 300 pounds and work on our bench press, we're not going to be moving it fast enough to predouce speed gains. If we simply throw lightning-fast pounches in the air, there's no resistance being worked against, and no reason to recruit more muscle fibers into the movement. But by taking a sub-maximal (50-60% 1RM) weight, and moving it as fast as possible, we can develop the type of speed-strength we're looking for.

    "Dr. Squat" Fred Hatfield calls this Compensatory Acceleration Training, and he's the first man to squat over 1000 pounds. Louie Simmons uses similar training with the Westside Barbell Club, and they have over a dozen guys who can bench and/or squat over 800 pounds. This type of training is specially designed to make all these athletes faster, because faster means stronger.
  16. Cownose

    Cownose Valued Member

    Sorry to take this off topic, but I was wondering what percentage of your bodyweight should you be able to bench before you do that kind of stuff? I heard that for lower body you should be able to squat 1.5x your bodyweight before doing plyometrics, but I never heard anything about upper body.
  17. Long_Distance_R

    Long_Distance_R New Member

    One Part about your post. Where you said sometin on "Toning."You said light weight with lots of reps are no good. For example my max on bench is 150lbs. and if I wannted a more cut look wouldn't I decrease my weight to 115 or sometin then do 12 reps?
  18. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    No, you wouldn't. You'd do more cardio.
    Depends if we're actually doing plyometrics or explosive lifting. If it's simply explosive lifting, you can do that at any stage of preparedness. For plyometrics, benching your weight is a good benchmark.
  19. JKD_forever

    JKD_forever DEADLIFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Good thinking Vicious Freak to post this,
    I would just like to add few points if that's ok with you,

    There is a difference between explosiveness and speed. Explosiveness or acceleration of any movement, such as punch or kick for that matter is measured as a total amount of force allied in a shortest possible time. Although closely related, acceleration and speed are two different things, and training for those characteristics is different too. Some sprinters have excellent start, but after 50-60m. They are outrun by faster sprinters even though they had slower start.
    As a martial artist, your primary concern should be explosiveness, and the training that goes with it. Heavy resistance exercises do not influence the velocity of nonresisted movements with the exercised limb nor the reaction time measured for that limb. So, in short, the speed of single nonresisted movements is not going to be improved by exercising with relatively heavy weights. Heavy resistance exercises will only help the speed of movements against considerable resistance, as recent research showed. However, training with very heavy resistance in low rep (2-4) and high set (4-6 [although 10 is ok, it put emphasis on strength endurance as well] ) help recruit as much of your fast twitching muscle fibers as possible, and develops explosiveness. Doing 1 rep. and many sets (12) can and should be done sparingly. Training with maximal resistance should be done is a such ay that it DOESN'T bring mental fatigue as well. Many people forget about this and they try to lift more than they can (in normal calm mental state). Mental fatigue can be worst than physical, and usually is when dealing with extremely heavy weights.
    BUT, heavy resistance training is not an end in itself - eventually an athlete's maximal strength increases so much that all the curve increase happens later than the time available for action, i.e fraction of sec of punch initiation. So, further increases of maximal strength probably will bring no improvements in explosiveness (EVEN though your absolute strength may progress, this is very different). From that point on, the key to improvement lies in shifting the curve by explosive strength exercises, one of them famous plyometrics.

    On the subject of muscle gains and hypertrophy - Training in fashion which brings most absolute strength , i.e. activate muscle fibers, can never induce muscle breakdown as much as training with more reps less sets and moderate weights can, i.e. 4 x 8 or 3 x 12 with ~ 80% of 1 RM. Of course it doesn't mean that you will not experience hypertrophy, just that it will be much slower. SO, the point it, everything has it's time and place in martial arts. Including lifting for hypertrophy for a period of few weeks or months, SO that when you return to your absolute strength training regime (which, shouldn't be exercises for a long period of time) , your absolute strength will improve (because as you know bigger muscle, if trained properly will have greater absolute strength than smaller, or should I say, it will be easier to achieve one).
    Why do you think so many athletes have a period of hypertrophy program, followed by strength regime? You must divide your year plan accordingly. You can’t train each week each months each year exactly the same. No athletes does.
    One month you will concentrate on hypertrophy, going maybe 4 times to the gym, next month you will concentrate on strength so you will go maybe 3 day per week, after that to maintain the abs. strength you will go 2 days per week, so that you can concentrate 4 days on plyometrics. This is much more beneficial, AS science showed as well.
  20. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member



Share This Page