Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Combat Sports, May 25, 2013.

  1. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Man, we're all in the " nothing special category," otherwise we'd be training for UFC not posting on MAP :D

  2. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    To be fair, the whole context of the Wall Street Journal video was a fun intro. Bartitsu class for mostly non-MAist steampunkers, at a big steampunk convention.
  3. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I don't think anything would manage to look non-silly at a steampunk convention. :]
  4. furinkazan

    furinkazan Valued Member

    Bartitsu is interesting in its own right. The grappling comes from several aikido and juijitsu techniques according to the founder himself. I own a manual on the school and theres a lot of how to and photo references for the techniques.

    I will note that theres a whole cane fighting syllabus that is taken straight from jo staff techniques and the wrist locks are the same as some in my own experiences within the Bujinkan, take from that what you will.
  5. furinkazan

    furinkazan Valued Member

    I will raise something I have always thought in martial arts: wether you can call it an 'authentic' style or not is not an issue, the techniques working is whats really important. I may have gained this attitude due to the questionable nature of the Bujinkan's history and the slagging it gets but does it matter if the techniques are of high quality and work?

    There are, however, some books on Bartitsu that contain some of it's techniques, if I recall the one known as 'The Sherlock Holmes Guide to Self Defence' is a good reference to the techniques in Bartitsu (in a quick glance) so you could start from there I guess.
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Cane from Jo? Are you sure?

    I'd have thought it was based around La canne.

    It's not surprising that the locks are similar to the Buj, after all a good deal of BBT is Jujutsu in one form or another.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    If you want to learn Bartitsu then you want to learn Bartitsu not some cheap knock off or what some bloke thinks is Bartitsu.

    So yes it does matter, if you are simply concerned with effectiveness then there are plenty of arts that can give you that and don't have any legitimacy problems.
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I reckon if me and you were to go out drinking Dean, you would drag me around some very fancy bars that have the most extravagant wines from "good" vineyards and fancy whiskys from stillers of great repute.

    Then I'd take you to the cheapest, nastiest bar to get the cheapest drinks.

    My purpose is to get drunk, yours is to enjoy the taste.

    How's my analogy? :D
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    I don't drink.


    I train in bits of everything now. Koryu, gendai and even a hybrid system composed of Eskrima, Wing Chun and a few other bits :eek:

    I've got Muay Thai in my sights for the future and Judo if my knees hold up.
    Just because I do Koryu doesn't mean I'm only there for the tradition. ;)

    However if a teacher says they teach X art I bloody well expect them to be teaching it and not some made up er "stuff".

    ps using analogies like that is a sure sign you've been hanging around the Ninjutsu forum too much. :D
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  10. Infesticon #1

    Infesticon #1 Majesticon

    I tried a ninjutsu lesson once that was followed by a Bartitsu lesson. I know my opinion counts for little but the bujinkan lesson was very good and I got a pretty good feeling for one of the locks I was shown. We had a little bit of swordwork too. I have very little sword experience but the technique I was shown seemed very useful.

    When the lesson was over the Bartitsu people came in. The seemed in very good physical condition, this personally is a big factor when I look at any school. They also seemed very knowledgeable to me. But like I said what is the opinion of an inexperienced guy worth.
  11. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I don't really see how an art can be revived. Normally martial arts have many minute movements that give it their own flavor. I don't think that those kinds of things are transmitted very well in old books and pictures.
  12. KaliKuntaw

    KaliKuntaw Valued Member

    Ive trained with the NYC Bartitsu club.
    We trained La Canne when i went.
    Prof. Mark P. Donnely is a skilled teacher.
    They train Ju Jutsu, Savate, Bare knuckle boxing, and western blade arts ( not part of Bartitsucompendium but still good work.)
  13. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I would agree for most arts, but Bartitsu is a special case because it is a mix of other arts. Recombining boxing, schwingen, judo, la canne, fencing, and jujutsu should get you reasonably close to the original art. Also the existence of training manuals also adds to the likelihood of ending up with a finished product that is reasonably close to the original.
  14. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    Bartitsu was founded decades before aikido and the cane fighting syllabus is taken from Pierre Vigny's method, which was a radical modification of traditional French/Swiss cane fencing. The idiosyncratic close-combat cane techniques (trips, joint-locks etc.) may have represented a melding of Japanese and French systems that took place at the original Bartitsu Club, but no-one knows for sure.
  15. KaliKuntaw

    KaliKuntaw Valued Member

    You must also consider nothing develops in a vaccuum. Bartitsu today, had it become popular would have evolved from its original curriculum depending on where its practitioners take it.
    For instance, one thing the NYC Bartitsu Club practices is using improvised weapons. In the turn of the century that would be umbrellas, parasols, snuff boxes etc. Today it would obviously be modern accoutrements.
  16. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    "Bartitsu: The Sherlock Holmes School of Self Defence" is fine for what it is but the presentation suggests that it's a reprint of a book by Barton-Wright. It isn't; it's a nicely-produced set of excerpts from some of Barton-Wright's original articles for Pearson's Magazine, plus some techniques from an article on bicycle self defense that was not actually related to Bartitsu.
  17. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    The fact that all modern Bartitsu training is an approximation of the historical art is taken for granted as a basic premise of the activity; that's why it's often referred to as "neo-Bartitsu". Overall, the object is to continue the martial arts cross-training experiments that Barton-Wright started.

    The challenge is to get as close to the original art as is practical, via historical research and practical pressure-testing - see .
  18. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I think that this is an absolutely crucial point. There are no claims of secret unbroken lineages, no modern rewrites of scrolls "lost in a fire". There is no deception with Bartitsu. Unlike so many arts that magically popped into existence after many years in hibernation (Not Implying aNything, Just A Statement) Bartitsu fully owns up to the fact that they are trying to revive a dead art.
  19. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    As a history buff, I have a vague idea what went into the original bartitsu. I think it was judo, jujutsu, wrestling, bare boxing, la canne vigny and savate (some say there is a knife component as well).

    What are the arts used now?
  20. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    There are two or three references to some sort of knife techniques being taught as part of the Bartitsu curriculum, but we know essentially nothing about it.

    Otherwise, different clubs have their own approaches but in general Bartitsu is still a system of cross-training between the original sub-styles, practiced as closely as is reasonably possible to the way they were trained at the London Bartitsu Club circa 1900. So, the jujitsu curriculum draws mostly from the books produced by Bartitsu Club instructors Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi, the cane syllabus is based on Vigny's system, etc.

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