Balintawak// any one out there doing it???/

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Acekicken, Feb 1, 2003.

  1. Acekicken

    Acekicken Submission Fighter

    My instructer is real Hot on this Subject
    I see it as a corto Styel with Some Wicked Sweet Moves.

    I Prefer Largo Mano But am
    enjoying the Training anyone else doing it????
     
  2. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    There are at least 2 branches of Balintawak that I'm aware of. I'm pretty well versed in Bobby Taboada's system of Balintawak Cuentada. I have all the skill and material that he requires for "completion of art" ... but I'm not interested in going down to NC and shelling out the money for the test. I respect the art and Bobby a lot ... but I'm not all that interested in pursuing formal rank in it (I've got enough on my plate as it is).

    However, I can probably answer questions you may have about Balintawak in general and, specifically, Bobby's system.

    Mike
     
  3. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Oh ... and something else I meant to mention ...

    I'd actually consider it a medio system ... but it does have corto elements, and largo elements. But its bulk (at least in Bobby's system) is, to my eyes, medio. As far as sweet moves ... ayup. It's got some *very* good material in it.

    Mike
     
  4. Acekicken

    Acekicken Submission Fighter

    My instructer is Datu Tim Hartman
    He is Grand Master Remy 's highets Tested Black Belt in The U.S.
    (Modern Arnis )

    And Now training in Balintawak Through Ted Buit
    Who was The Man Chosen By Balintawak Grand Master
    Ancion Bacon.

    Im Not Familar With Bobby Taboda?
    But am intrested in knowing The Concepts Behined
    This Close Range F.M.A. or Corto Mano.
     
  5. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Yup. I'm familiar with both Tim Hartman and Ted Buot by reputation. I've not seen any of Ted's Balintawak but would love to some time :)

    Bobby was a student of Villasin, who was a student of Bacon. Bobby also trained some with Bacon and some of the other senior students under him ... but Villasin was Bobby's primary instructor in Balintawak. Bobby also trained in boxing and Shotokan ... and possibly others (I'm pulling this from memory and apologize if I'm misstating anything).

    Most of the FMA I've trained in has been medio or corto ... probably about 60% medio, 40% corto, and 10% largo.

    Usually, when I get into corto range, I start using Silat.

    The ranges (for those who don't know) are generally defined as follows:

    Largo Mano (literally, "long hand") is long range and covers anything from where you can hit your opponent's hand/arm with your stick but can't reach his head or body.

    Medio is the middle range and covers where you can hit your opponent with the long end of your stick. At this range, your live hand (the one with no weapon, or a shorter weapon) starts coming into play to check, monitor, and trap.

    Corto is the close range where you can reach your opponent's head and body with your punyo (the short end of your stick) and your hands/head/elbows/knees/etc. This is also where the grappling (dumog or buno) starts coming into play.

    The actual physical range differs from person to person and weapon to weapon. Largo range with empty hands, for instance, is medio range for a stick. Largo range for kicks is roughly the same as with a stick. Medio range with hands means boxing range and corto with hands means elbows and headbutts. And, of course, since different people have different reaches, their personal ranges will be different for each weapon, too.

    Mike
     
  6. Acekicken

    Acekicken Submission Fighter

    Kool I Like Largo Mano stick Fighting
    When I Get to close it Becomes a Submisson Wrestling Match
    Submisson is My 1st passion but i strive to be complete.
     
  7. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Yeah. My largo is pretty limited. It's mostly geared toward getting through to medio and corto ranges. If I can finish a fight at largo, though, I most certainly will. But, personally, I like the close range stuff and am comfortable there. I also like being able to bring *all* of my weapons to bear. Also, a lot of people aren't real comfortable in the corto range ... which often gives me an upper hand if I can get there.

    But, as with everything, it boils down to personal attributes and preferences. With my body type and mindset, corto suits me and I find it very comfortable. Largo doesn't suit me as well.

    Another reason that largo doesn't suit me personally is my eyesight. My depth perception sucks. So I'd much rather be in close where my timing relies on tactile input instead of visual.

    Mike
     
  8. renegade

    renegade New Member

    I heard my name. Probably nothing good was said.

    As far as the Balintawak family tree goes with Bobby is as follows.

    Bacon taught Villasin.

    Villasin taught Velez.

    Velez taught Bobby.

    This comes from Ted Buot who kept records of the club.

    Tim Hartman
     
  9. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Hi Tim. No, nothing good was said ... just kidding :) Actually, political crap aside, everything I've heard about you has been positive.

    Thanks for the clarification. As I said, I was pulling from memory and I must have gotten my "V" names confused.

    Mike
     
  10. renegade

    renegade New Member

    They must have been on the payroll!
     
  11. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    LOL ... you keep professional flatterers on retainer, too? That's so cool. Someday I hope to be able to afford them. :)

    Mike
     
  12. renegade

    renegade New Member

    You need to have Low people in High places!
     
  13. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    <g>

    Actually, most of what I've heard about you has come from the Eskrima Digest. I'm sure you're aware of both the good and the bad that's been written there about you. Since I tend to ignore political crap, most everything about you that I've seen has been good.

    I'm sure that some day, our paths will cross in person (I travel a fair bit and love training). I look forward to when they do.

    Mike
     
  14. renegade

    renegade New Member

    I'll be teaching in Bloomington this fall. Maybe we can hook up.

    I ignore what is written these days on E-Digest. If some one has a problem with me they should take it up face to face instead of being a TROLL and hide behind their screens with fake identities!

    Remy always told me "The better you do, the more clowns will bark at you like dogs". Keeping that in mind, I must be doing good.

    Tim
     
  15. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Absolutely. Bloomington is only about an hour from me.

    LOL. Amen to that.

    Yup. A guy once tried to tell me that my instructor was a fake. I said, "You know, you can talk all you want. But it's all a bunch of hot air. Only thing that matters to me is what I've seen and experienced first hand. When I train with other people in the same material, I see the same thing. Obviously, his knowledge came from somewhere. I know from my own fights that what he's teaching me is valid. I've seen the way he's treated by the people he claims as instructors ... they smile, greet him by name, hug him, and seem sincere about it. If he were a fake, that wouldn't happen. So you can take your talk elsewhere. I ain't buyin'."

    The E-Digest, overall, is a good forum. It has its problems, as do all forums. I just keep reading, looking for those occasional pearls. And I keep posting when I think I have something worthwhile to contribute (and, all modesty aside, I think I've contributed a few pearls of my own over the years). Everything else is just hot air.

    Definitely send me the info about your trip gig in Bloomington. My e-mail is sikal@yahoo.com

    I look forward to meeting you.

    Mike
     
  16. Acekicken

    Acekicken Submission Fighter

    It's Nice to see The renegade on Martial Arts
    Planet =-)
     
  17. pinoy

    pinoy Valued Member

    hi sirs! may I inquire if sir bob tabimina is different w/ bob Taboada :confused: both of balintawak arnis.

    tnx :)
     
  18. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Hehe, make note to self, if ever in a fight with pesilat throw rocks and keep poking at him with a big stick :D
    Mike and everyone else,
    can y'all describe the corto arnesal(might of spelled that wrong) and some basic corto strategies of balintawak? Like what parts of the punyo do you use, do you target just the head(with the punyo) or are there areas in the body as well, your use of elbows, ect. Just want to get a feel for what its like in close.
    Oh and another question, Mike, what did you think of GM Taboada's abilities? In largo, medio, corto and emptyhand?
    Thanks
     
  19. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Anybody here ever meet or train with Tony Veeck in Germany?
     
  20. Moebius

    Moebius New Member

    Gruo Inosanto's Balintawak Progressions

    The last two seminars I attended with Guro Inosanto covered some Balintawak. Guro Faye has also had us work on this on several occasions.

    Guro Inosanto spoke at some length about how there were 5 different branches within this community, and how none of them got along with each other.

    He also mentioned that there were four systems that were very similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology, but were irrevocably at odds politically (I don't have my notes in front of me, so forgive me if this is wrong...). These were:

    Balintawak
    Doce Pares
    Lapunti
    Tres Hermanos (Tres Personas, maybe...not sure)


    The drill we did made use of a cinco teros feeding pattern:

    1. High Inward
    2. High Backhand
    3. Mid Inward
    4. Mid Backhand
    5. Straight Thrust

    I know that there are more strikes in the Balintawak system, I suspect that this was for the confines of a seminar format.


    The basic progression usually goes: (By stage)

    They feed & you...
    1. Supported Block
    2. Supported Block & 1 Return - They receive this with a supported block
    3. Supported Block - 1 Return - Trap the stick (their supported block) & strike (They trap with their live hand)
    4. Supported Block - 1 Return - Trap the stick & strike - trap their hand & strike
    5. Supported Block - 1 Return - Preempt their block & strike - trap their hand & strike
    6. Supported Block - 1 Return - Preempt both their block and hand & strike

    Each of the supported blocks are sweeps - tips up with a supporting hand either at the grip just above the weapon hand, on the wrist of the weapon hand, or with the forearm closer to the tip (akin to x-block).

    The return we used was a supported/double handed stroke (as in Pekiti Tersia). If the sweep takes you across your body, the return will be a backhand throughout. If the sweep takes you to the weapon side of your body, the return will be an inward throughout.

    I believe there are something like 13 different stages that this goes through, each becoming progressively more complex. The training really emphasizes a tactical awareness of likely obstructions, how to trap & continue hitting at medium-short range.


    Each stage is trained with progressive footwork:

    1. De Fundo (stationary - Right lead, Left lead)
    2. Replacing (switching leads with each strike)
    3. Circling
    4. Walking (advancing, retreating)
    5. Running (advancing, retreating)


    When dealing with their live hand, there is a guideline for manipulating it, you want to end up on the outside of their live hand, away from the stick. To do this, there are typically three methods, each done with a side-step:

    (For sake of simplicity, I've used JKD terms when neccessary)

    1. Taun Sao/Lie Sao Trap (palm up, either dissolving or retracting slightly)
    2. Lop Sao (grabbing & pulling from the outside of their live arm)
    3. Waslik (As in Kali - to throw the arm away with a scooping motion)

    Personally, I like this training because it's lively, fast-paced, quick to develop, and you learn how to minimize your blocking motions behind a vertical supported block as an entry. I especially like training students to advance directly into the fray, aggressively forward, as it messes with the opponent's sense of range (very intimidating) - this takes courage. I think that what I've seen of this system indicates that it has as much to offer as Doce Pares or Pekiti Tersia, with its own strengths and emphasis in training.

    The down side is that supported blocks leave your hand and elbows open for hits, and you take some bruises on the forearm and pinky-side of your live hand until you get the placement right.

    If any of you have other insights into this system's training methods, please share them, I'd be interested in learning more.

    - Moe
     

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