Back to the old ways

Discussion in 'Judo' started by blackbelt_judoj, Mar 13, 2004.

  1. blackbelt_judoj

    blackbelt_judoj New Member

    The more I look at modern-day competition judo the more it worries me. Competitors are so worried about comitting themselves to a throw in fear of being countered etc that we find people in a more and more defensive position. The IJF responded to this lack of attacking by introducing pacivity rules (OK) and this has helped a bit. What I would like to see is a return to the old ways where fights were the best of three ippons (no time limit). This meant that the Judoka could step out on the mat and "give it guns" straight off without the worry that one mistake would mean the end of the competition. As it is at the moment people win more now on penaltys than they do with throws. Is this right? Lets raise the standard required to get an ippon (which is being continually lowered) and let's get out there and have a good scrap! What does everyone else think?
  2. Adam

    Adam New Member

    I think you're spot on. The rules of competition judo are so peculiar I have a difficult time seeing how it can be classed as a martial art competition, and they give people bad habits for actual fighting. Take for instance the fact that many judoka like to put their head at waist level and trying to pull from there. In a real fight that would earn you a knee to the face. Ippon is also awarded for pansy throws that wouldn't even do damage on if used on a concrete surface and wouldn't end any fight. Plus, the other day I got tossed, did a beautiful breakfall with my face. The instructor who tossed me then went "Ooops, my bad, you win" because he did an illegal throw.
    The pin also needs to go, in my opinion, as pinning somebody to the ground isn't a fight stopper. Armlocking or choking them might be though.

    Oh, and fights shouldn't get stood up all the time after a failed throw. Then maybe we'd get to use some newaza

    I'm all for making judo less ju.
  3. SamuraiFire

    SamuraiFire Banned Banned


    I agree, and there should be a longer time limit, or maybe no time limit on the floor. Like you should get a couple of minutes for ground work, as the ground restriction is resulting in less and less clubs training in any ground fighting competantly.

    I haven't done judo for a good while, but i'd really like to get back to it.
  4. Natcall

    Natcall New Member

    OK it's the year 2004, we are doing our best to develop the sport not drag it back to the days we sent kids up chimneys and slave labour. The sport needs to change and as for extending the times for fights, when was the last time you competed in a comp fight, it is fast and furious and blooming well HARD. THREE IPPONS!!! why not go back to lifting a player over our head to win or 14 in a dan grade line up or even make it harder, lets make in last man standing. NO. We need to go forward not BACKWARDS. LET JUDO GROW!!

    P.S Competitive 4th Dan and Veteran :woo:
  5. SamuraiFire

    SamuraiFire Banned Banned


    Are you having a go at me? I just want more ground time.
  6. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    kind of feel that judo has become a sport. my friend ali sulit feels that judo should return to it's roots and should be taken as judo as a martial art.
  7. willy

    willy New Member

    no 1/8 1/4 or 1/2 points only ippon, no pins only submisson. and no time limit. ground work only to be stood up when it gets to the point that it is stalled.
  8. blackbelt_judoj

    blackbelt_judoj New Member


    Willy, sounds a bit extreme but I like it. He he. Prehaps not suitable for juniors though. I think it's quite rare that you get ippons in junior matches (bearing in mind that for an ippon to be awarded Tori must have control, it's not enough that they should land on their back....i believe).
  9. redbull

    redbull New Member

    I like it, maibe allow some leg lock too, but the 10 second ground rule its got to go.
  10. willy

    willy New Member

    leglocks would have to be kept to higer ranks, newbies don't know the feel of many of them and they are easier to cause damage with.

    and there is no 10 second rule. at least not in the states. you can play on the ground as long as "progress" is being made. problem is the vast majority of refs don't know what progess is they don't know the subtle detail and stand people up. another horrible ref thing is the 3-5 second choke thing. 3-5 is perfect 20 seconds is more realistic against a good opponent who prevents you from getting a perfect choke.

    blackbelt- extreme would be requiring a KO from the throw :D
  11. Specter

    Specter New Member

    I totally agree with altering the rules of Judo, but to make it more vicious? Lets remember that competition is exactly what it sounds like: testing the effectiveness of your techniques in a more agressive setting than little friendly randori. Allowing such techniques as leg locks and eliminating pins is NOT the way to go. These will damage the opponents (Who wants a competition with the potential to eliminate you from judo all together?). And suggesting that pins do not end a fight is incorrect in its own way. It sounds to me as if the question being asked here is not "are tournaments too passive," but "is all of judo too passive?" Personally, I am glad to be being taught ways of stopping a fight once it has started that don't rip elbows and crush throats. I think the real problem in all of this is not the rules, but the attitudes of the players, coaches and refs. People are too willing to sacrifice judo talent for ability to use the rules to their advantage, coaches are too willing to teach incorrectly to be able to say "my student won this tournament," and refs are too eager to blame injuries and other problems on the rules instead of on their inattention.
  12. willy

    willy New Member

    leg locks are no more viscious than armbarrs. it is just as easy to tap out on a leg lock as an armbar if you have the experiance to know what they feel like. BJJ, sambo, MMA, pankritan etc.. all allow leglocks and they are not considered more dangerous than any other locks. we use them quite a bit in class with the advanced people as well as ankle and wrist locks. noone ever gets hurt.

    as for pins, pins are not a fight ender. sometimes people will gas out in a pin, this does not mean you beat them it means you out lasted them. the purpose of pins is and always has been to incapacitate an opponent,SO YOU CAN ATTACK. pins are easy to lock down and hold for 25 seconds. pins are hard to hold that long when you are attempting a submisson. your attacks open up oppertunities for the defender to escape. you want to be more technical, than make submissons the norm. another tterible thing pins have given us is the "turtle" since back mount is not an established "pin" that means people huddle up to avoid ground work. talk about using the rules to your advantage! the turtle is perhaps the single worst thing you can do in a self defence situation.YET JUDO ENCOURAGES IT?!?!

    as for requireing an ippon for a win, every judo throw should be a ippon. we don't give koka's for getting an armbar than losing it. we don't give koka's when somebody gets choked enough to be uncomfortable but not go out or tap.THAN WHY SHOULD WE GIVE POINTS FOR FAILED TECHINUQUES. that's what a throw that is not an ippon is, a failed technique. it did not meet all the requirements and is a failure. also raising the standard to ippon will do nothing but create better judo players, judo players will have to be more agressive and technicly sound. they will not be allowed to be passive and defend, it is all or nothing.

    and finally expecting everybody to "live be the spirit of the rules" is foolish and a cop out of fixing the problems. sure it would be great if everyone could just be perfect but it is not smart to actually belive they will. people will always bend rules to use them to their best intrests, this is why we should establish rules that encourage behavior we want(good throws, agressive attacks, continus action with no stalling etc..) and not rules that discourage what we don't want.
  13. blackbelt_judoj

    blackbelt_judoj New Member

    I think I agree with most of what your saying...apart from:-

    1. Judo is a sport, not a martial art. Therefore the turtle defence does not have to be suitable for "street fighting". On that line of thought, most throws are unsuitable if not impossible unless your opponent is wearing a gi because the grips /strength in the clothing we require is just not there. If this was not the case then we would wear "standard", lightwe MA clothing

    2. If you fail to throw for an ippon then you can still achieve the purpose of the throw :- to put your opponent on the floor. Therefore I think that you should still get some form of points. If you fail to apply an arm bar or choke etc incorrectly then you effectively achieve nothing and so should be awarded no points.

    3. Not too sure if this is right or not, but i always believed that pins came from when Samurai had lost there weapon and so had to fight bare handed. They then took there opponents to the floor where they held them until a fellow Samurai could stick his sword in. Hence the pin in itself doesn't cause a submission, but the act of holding your opponent down symbolises restraining an enemy until you can be helped out.
  14. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I don't agree with point 3 there.... I think the pins are something fairly new to martial arts. The groundwork involving breaks or chokes may have been included in some schools of jujutsu, but if the osae-waza were originally in their training I would imagine it was only as transitional work.

    This is my opinion, and not based on facts.
  15. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    Though not a judoka myself, i have to agree from a spectator point of view.
  16. willy

    willy New Member

    black belt.

    1.- no judo is not and was not intended to be merely a sport. it is a martial art with a sporting aspect. there are weapons katas, there are striking katas, there are self defence katas, all to be learned for there martial aspects. the sporting part is to enable training that is both agressive and full contact while ensuring that it can be done with a reasonable amount of safety.

    second. the VAST majority of throws can be done no gi. learn new grips and practice practice practice and you will find that it is not that different at all.

    2. the purpose of a throw is not only to get someone down. that's why you get no points even if you slam someone on their face. or no points for dragging them down. the purpose is to get someone to land mostly on there back, with considerable speed, force and control. if you have not done this you failed at your throw.

    3. you would never sit and wait on a battlefeild. what if you are pinning someone and HIS friend gets there first? what if alll your friends are busy? how long do you wait? would you stay on the ground holding someone down as men with swords run by and horses stomp everywhere? pins were for controling an opponent while you either employed your secondary weapon ie. tanto. or to hold him down while you took him out of the fight by breaking limbs or choking to death. take a look at old jujitsu ground work, it is very much hurt as much as quick as possible and get up.
  17. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    A tournament that I was at two weekends ago, the judge warned the competitors twice about not being agressive, just sitting back waiting defensively. They finally got involved in a real match and made it interesting.
  18. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    It amazes me that people that have done Judo for years still just think of it only as a sport. There was a long MAP thread on this a few months ago, the poll gave the conclusion that the majority of MAP-ers thought it was both a MA and a sport.

    MAists that do Judo to compliment other arts (like myself) tend to see more of the MA application as opposed to the sporting side. If you read articles by Kano (or even just the intro to his book, Kodokan Judo) his motivation for creating Judo was in his view to replace/improve Ju Jitsu in Japan. There was a lot of initial competition between Judo and JJ in the late 1800's, with Judo winning out as the more popular "martial art". I am sure you wouldn't have caught Kano or any of his senior students assuming the turtle defense!!

    Judo, as it is taught today, has a lot of emphasis on competition, being an Olympic sport - but the fundamental techniques don't seem that different to Kano's original MA intentions. IMO its the modern day competition tactics that screw things up from a MA perspective.

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