Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Silv, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. Silv

    Silv New Member

    It's interesting to note that Masaaki Hatsumi and Shoto Tanemura are in fact cousins. They went their separate ways and both tried to profit from claiming authentic Ninjutsu. Like Masaaki Hatsumi, Shoto Tanemura has no proof of authentic Ninjutsu roots. To*****ugu Takamatsu also claimed to be related to authentic Ninjutsu but he too had no proof. So, in conclusion To*****ugu Takamatsu, Masaaki Hatsumi, and Shoto Tanemura all were/are unable to prove they are related to anything close to authentic Ninjutsu.

    The Iga-Ryu Ninja museum has scientifically analyzed ancient Ninjutsu writings. The conclusion they came up with is that Jinichi Kawakami is the last inheritor to authentic Ninjutsu. To*****ugu Takamatsu, Masaaki Hatsumi, and Shoto Tanemura's names are never even mentioned and their explanations of Ninjutsu history don't correspond.
    http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html

    *Again, I am talking about the history section of the museum and not the tourist attractions with the actors and such which is completely different*

    On the Shiga Prefecture, Japan government website it shows Banke Shinobinoden doing a seminar for Shiga Prefecture in conjunction with a study of Ninjutsu history:
    http://www.pref.shiga.jp/h/m-doboku/konanIC/ibento.html

    Oh, and some people like to bring up Masaaki Hatsumi winning an award for "promotion of culture etc." This award has absolutely nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It's an award for spreading Japanse culture which seems fit because he brings in many foreigners to Japan.
     
  2. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    No proof that you know of.
    Ever heard of a guy called Koyama Ryutaro BTW?

    Furthermore, Togakure ryu wasn't "rejected" per se. It was more a matter of Hatsumi refusing to hand over the original scrolls.
     
  3. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Not handing over scrolls that are central to the claim of authenticity resulted in Hatsumi's organisation not receiving recognition. Whether or not you admit this to be a 'rejection' or not is very much a matter of semantics. if you have 'proof' that you refuse to have independently verified the only people it proves anything to are those who have already decided to believe.
     
  4. ShadowHunter

    ShadowHunter Living the Dream

    Silv. You appear, I think deliberatley, chosen to ignore my questions for the third time in a row. Now I am no authority on correct or incorrect Ninjutsu if in fact 'true' Ninjutsu still exists at all. However, you continue to hatemonger using links that are more-or-less common knowledge on every MA's forum now and therefore nothing new.

    Nor do I claim that Hatsumi's way of teaching nor the content of his teachings are the 'one true way' just as Jinichi Kawakami may also not be teaching undiluted Ninjutsu in spite of all these artefacts and scrolls he appears to have.

    If the Choson Ninja or Ali Abdul Karim or even Ashida Kim suddenly opened up a museum, became the curator of said museum and then presented some "scientifically analyzed ancient Ninjutsu writings" would you then be posting about them here instead of Jinichi Kawakami? Perhaps, perhaps not.

    Please, don't take me as someone you may call a 'drone' of the Bujinkan, I'm merely someone who thinks this debate is both pointless and has very much been from the start and who would much rather see this thread locked.

    Mostly so I don't have to see you post those links over-and-over again.

    It's a double-edged sword and unless the Ban Family and Masazo Ishida suddenly spring out from somewhere it still will be.

    If it works, it works, if it doesn't then it doesn't. Lineage is irrelevant unless you are some person who A) Thinks they know it all or B) Someone who thinks they think they know it all but in actuality have nothing but links to websites and smoke an mirrors.

    SH
     
  5. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    This is taken from the Iga-ryu Ninja Museums FAQ.

    "Are there heirs to the art of ninjutsu today?
    There are several researchers of ninjutsu history, but as for a ninjutsu heir, Kawakami Jinichi (honorary director of the Iga Ninja Museum) is the 21st Soke of the Koka-ryu Hanto, and is called the last ninja."

    Hmm, I wonder if he is more than an "honorary director" with this museum. It just seems a bit funny that he is "honorary director" of the only place that calls him authentic.

    If Kawakami Jinichi has the goods, then I hope he does everything possible to preserve his heritage. I just don't believe he has the goods, but rather a re-creation.
     
  6. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    You never read on e-budo if it was wondered if MMA had budo? In fact MMA has but it may also have it's roots in Koryu schools at some point. It is all about who trained with whom in the past. Just that people see the vision of one school from the past before the end of the Samurai period is Koryu, the ideas come from what was. Judo can be called Koryu as it was a fighting system but changed. It is all down to who was what at which time and who has the papers at the end.

    Which is a shame pointing out ninpo schools as most of the ideals in ninpo were not written down. It was oral teachings, not a idiots guide to ninpo, V. 3.5. Scrolls were guarded by the school, but the underhanded part of the Samurai school would not be written as it may lead back to some family. Whether people need proof or not to put their mind at ease, documentation is not 100% as paper from the 13th century seem to be in short supply at the moment.

    The Konigun tried that a few years back. They brought back writings from their alleged "secret ninja master called Saija". It turned out they bought it in Japan of which was something about cooking.:rolleyes:

    There is not enough smilies in the world for that mistake. Maybe this will sum it up in some strange smiley sequence:

    :confused::eek::rolleyes::bang::cry: <<-- Them

    :rolleyes::p:p:p:p:p:p:google: <<--- Every sane person who knew better.
     
  7. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Refusing to hand over the originals is not the same thing as not allowing anyone to see them.
     
  8. George Kohler

    George Kohler Valued Member

    Oh, you mean the organizations that allow a non-koryu ryuha into their list (Daito-ryu)?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  9. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    Well said.

    I find absolutely nothing wrong with your logic. What I'm saying is that logic, does not an airtight case make. Just because someone finds a website
    that supports their logic, doesn't mean that they're right.

    Honestly with the ninja thing, I really don't care. I study Bujinkan because they explore approaches to combat that I've always had in the back of my mind while studying other arts. It suits my learning style and philosophy.

    What bothers me so much about it, is the tone in which these kinds of "evidence" are always presented.

    Ex. "I found this website that says you guys are idiots. Didn't you guys know that you're idiots.....idiots"

    So far I haven't had the slightest problem with how you've presented yourself. Wouldn't it be great if we were all so grown up?

    I wasn't suggesting that he made it up, just that IME people get "honorific titles" by giving money, or donating product, so to suggest that it's the absolute truth and all else is folly, is...well...folly.(IMO)

    I think you'd be surprised at how objective some can be, but I don't disagree. What he's saying is that he read a website, so he's more in the know about an art he hasn't studied than everyone studying Bujinkan. I think it's a silly and irresponsible way to present yourself to a martial arts community.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  10. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    As an afterthought, people studying Bujinkan have been going to that museum in droves on every trip to Japan for the last 10 years at least. If Kawakami is such a big part of it, how come noone in the Bujinkan, especially those who've done alot of research on the topic, had heard of him until about 6 mos. ago?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  11. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    That's true.

    I think those are all very good reasons and it's refreshing when someone can practice something and not automatically claim that their chosen styles history must be 100% authentic.

    That's a fair enough complaint though I think criticising something as inauthentic is often a touchy subject regardless of tone.

    Same to you. Though to be honest I think I too quickly assumed that you were ignoring the arguments so for that I apologise.

    I actually agree as per my last post that I'm not so sure the websites linked are particularly impartial. I haven't done enough research to say definitely but I get a sense from those websites that they are pushing a particular agenda. I do however also think that Hatsumi's historical claims are extremely dubious and I think relatively well known museums (that he may have even funded) not recognising his organisation as authentic is significant.

    You may be right though I haven't got the impression from past discussions that many members are willing to look at the history objectively. I do enjoy being proven wrong though! I also agree that reading a website doesn't make you an expert... however if the website is referencing experts it is possible to come to an informed opinion (depending on the quality of the experts) through secondary sources. I also do not agre you need to necessarily have been involved with an art for a number of years to be able to assess it's historical claims. Few people practicing an art actually do proper historical research- in my experience most are guilty to the extreme of confirmation bias especially in regards to taking accounts by higher figures as 'authoritive'.

    Yes but when you refuse to let the relevant experts perform the necessary tests to authenticate their age it means that their credibility to any objective individual is very low.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  12. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    I didn't mean to give that impression. I'm saying that to think one knows more about the art than the people studying it based on what was read on a website is pretty silly.

    FWIW I don't recall hearing anything aside from the "All ninjutsu comes through me" comment, where Soke claimed to "know for sure", I've heard and read more than a few statements that were preceded by something like "according to Takamatsu" or "This is what my teacher told me". However with regard to the "All Ninjutsu comes through me" comment, he was talking to the Konigun guys so I'll forgive him that. :p
     
  13. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    From what I've gathered they're free to perform all the tests the want as long as they're conducted over at Hatsumi's place.
     
  14. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    For accurate dating the whole thing needs to be done in a controlled laboratory. I don't suppose Hatsumi's place is a fully equipped laboratory?
     
  15. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    That's perfectly understandable. If it were me though, that had what is supposedly the densho of one of the few last remaining schools of an otherwise completely dead art, I think I would have a hard time letting them leave my possession as well.
     
  16. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Having roots in koryu and actually being koryu are two very different things. Judo is not even close. It was founded after the restoration, and although judo and jujutsu were interchangeable terms back then, judo had a radically different purpose than jujutsu did, was taught in a very different way than other koryu, and was graded in a completely different way. MMA having budo, well thats a completely different animal........

    Seems a pretty convenient way of dodging the whole issue, but that's just my opinion. Let's say there actually are legit scrolls there that prove something - the onus is on Hatsumi to take them and get verified if he wants them substantiated, not on the organisation to go to him. What, does he think they will steal them or something? I can't see any valid reasoning there. Since he won't take them the scrolls may as well not exist. Hell I can claim to have a sword from the Roman empire stashed away in my closet, but if I won't show it to anyone to get it looked at, people would be right to be skeptical, no?

    No offence meant George, but that is irrelevant to the point I was trying to get across. I merely said that Hatsumi doesn't have what the organisations require. Period. Hence there is no point in people bitching and whinging unless they can supply what is needed. I just think it is all wasted energy for something that is not going to change anytime soon.....
     
  17. TRMcKelvey

    TRMcKelvey Valued Member

    Can you please provide documentation for the above statement? I visited the website and only have their statements. No articles, no research documentation, etc., no documentation of "scientifically analyzed ancient Ninjutsu writings". Just their opinion, with no proof. Just because a "museum" says it, doesn't make it so...where's their proof.

    As an aside is the "Koka" lineage what we have been calling "Koga"? If so, I suspect Fujita Seiko might differ with the statement that "Jinichi Kawakami is the last inheritor..." were he still alive.
     
  18. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    The thing is to get something dated by a well respected labratory say one attached to a university is not like lending it to your best mate who promises to give it back as good as new. It's not exactly a risky gamble. In fact at absolute worst I could only foresee a very small sample being damaged.

    I mean when you consider the issue objectively it really does sound very suspicious. In fact it reminds me of the whole shroud of Turin debacle. A dating test is not a risky procedure and Japan I'm certain has fantastic facilities for this kind of thing so Hatsumi really wouldn't be risking the scroll by getting it done. What he would be risking however is the chance that it turned out not to be what he claims.

    If Hatsumi has in his possesion an authentic scroll which is at the center of controversy over how old it is and refuses to get it dated it that really doesn't reflect well on its credibility. If I claimed for instance to have in my possession a 16th century Tibetan manuscript and refused to let anyone date it then I would hardly be suprised that no scholars of Tibetan history took my claim seriously.
     
  19. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I wouldn't take that risk either. I also suppose one possible explanation to it all would be that Hatsumi doesn't know what exactly it is that the test encompasses.

    Your analogy is flawed. There are plenty of people who have seen the "sword".
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2008
  20. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Plenty of people who have absolutely no way of checking if the age is as claimed and many of whom likely cannot even read what it says.
     

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