Authentic Taijiquan?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by runcai, Jan 30, 2014.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    More lean postures.

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    One good reason that you have to lean.

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    Did CMC lean?

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    There are 2 kind of lean. The

    - 1st kind that your gravity center is still inside of your base. You apply force F to lean but the gravity P will pull your body back. This kind of "lean" will have no usage because the gravity P will be against the your force F. This kind of lean is "not over-committing".
    - 2nd kind that you move your gravity center to be outside of your base. You apply force F to lean and the gravity P will help you to pull your body into that direction. Since now your force F can take advantage on the gravity P, this kind lean will be useful. This kind of lean is "over-committing".

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    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    There is a 33 pages of "lean in Taiji" discussion in another forum. That's why I have all those pictures. :)
     
  3. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I was wondering where you got all those annotated pics!
     
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Yes, there are moves where you lean forward, I din't mean to imply there weren't any. Picture #9 in post 21 is a prime example.But even when being in a position like that, you are still holding your back in a way that is aligned.

    Just the way the gentleman is leaning forward is very often during a lot of moves in the original video. It is just different from the way I am taught. So I was curious about it. I am taught that leaning forward as extremely as he does does not lead to a solid base and isn't particularly connected.

    I am just discussing variances in teachings and all. Why I am taught to do things a certain way. Not knocking him.

    Interesting stuff posted as a response- thanks!

    And no, I do not come from CMC line. I come from Yang Chengfu lineage.

    Yang Chengfu - Hu Yuen Chou - Doc-Fai Wong - Nathan Fisher - Don Tittle

    BTW, I would disagree that GM Wong is primarily CLF. He has quite a lot of experience and qualifications in Yang TCC. He also studied Chi Gung. Again, I wasn't knocking the guy, so no need to get testy. :) I was just curious. His being in something else was the way the OP presented it, but he doesn't seem to know for sure. I was hoping someone else could verify either way.

    And even though I come from this line, and you posted pictures of YCF doing it, we are not taught that way. I am talking about moves like PTWHM, or Brush Knee. Of course in a couple of moves like punch low, we do lean. You can't really punch low without doing this somewhat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  5. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    re: leaning & being connected: that depends heavily on the movement you're doing, and some knowledge of anatomy and biomechanics goes a long way towards understanding where, how and all the other assorted questions. assuming you're doing a read hand palm strike or push, if you want to create an unbroken kinetic chain from your contact point to the ground, you should usually, from distal to proximal (arm), then top to bottom (torso and legs):

    -align the wrist so that the contact point is exposed (specifics depending on how you use your palm), to transfer reaction force through your forearm, to your elbow. this employs the muscles of the forearm (again, specifics depend).

    -extend the elbow, for obvious reasons, this employs the triceps and brings the reaction force to your shoulder through your upper arm.

    -slightly flex the shoulder joint, and protract the shoulder blade (and thus that side of the shoulder girdle). this transmits the reaction force through the clavicle and the muscles of the upper torso, and into one side of the chest, using the deltoids, the lats, the pectorals, the serratus, the rotator cuff, etc (basically everything in your upper torso that isn't your upper back or neck, and probably some of it too if you're good at nei gong :p).

    -slightly flex the thoracic spine to bring that kinetic energy down to the abdomen through the ribcage, and resist the rotation incurred by unilateral pressure. this is done through combined action of the entire abdominal wall, the ribcage (intercostals compressing the ribs to increase intra-abdominal pressure), and all the muscles involved in the prior bullet points.

    -slightly flex the lumbar spine to bring that energy to the pelvis via the abdominal wall (mainly the rectus abdominus, which is also the main muscle involved).

    -hold your intra-abdominal pressure with the muscles of the pelvic floor and abdominal wall (particularly the transversus abdominus). this helps strengthen the actions of the torso and transfer more kinetic energy downwards along the front of the body.

    -slightly extend the hip joint and knee of the rear leg. this involves the hip and knee extensor muscles (glutes, hamstrings, quads, mainly) and performs the same function as the upper limb actions, transferring the energy through your leg, to the floor via your heel.

    this can and possibly will vary depending on the exact motion you're doing and your size and shape and position relative to your opponent, and will not necessarily be an overt or exaggerated motion (in fact the joints that extend, flex and/or rotate may even be doing so back to a neutral position rather than past it), but generally speaking, all of these serve mainly the purpose of providing an unbroken kinetic chain from the point of contact to the ground, which is (hopefully) immobile and immovable, thus causing movement at the other end (the opponent). since this kinetic chain is formed by redirecting force that is acting upon your body, the closer it is to a straight line, the less force you'll need to create with your musculature in order to hold it (suddenly TAIJI!), and if you look at the pictures YKW kindly provided, you'll see that they more or less conform to what i described. if one were to be upright while using a brush knee and push type of rear hand palm technique, for example, one would greatly increase the amount of force needed from the torso to redirect that force down to the hips, and increase the chance that the kinetic chain would break somewhere along the body, resulting in movement at whichever now-unfixed bodypart it occurred in (example, a failure to properly flex the spine will lead to the upper body being pushed backwards, effectively extending the spine and unbalancing the practitioner, something with which i am all too familiar with because practically speaking my taiji skill is essentially a vaccuum cleaner).

    just my 2 cents as a tai chi noob and anatomy/biomechanics nerd-in-training

    edit: and of course, movements in different planes/directions to a rear hand forwards push will have their own range of optimal positions and motor patterns, with the same goal of creating an unbroken kinetic chain so that the other guy is affected while you aren't.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you lean,

    PRO:

    - you will have farther reach.
    - you can borrow your body weight and gravity to pull you forward. This will give you extra power.

    CON:

    - You will have more commitment and you opponent can take advantage on you.

    It's a trade off. There is no right and wrong there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Li Jinglin's Taiji form was always 108 moves. It may also depend on how you count the moves. It you count "grasp sparrow's tail" as one move than it will be less than 108 moves. My teacher had changed the following 6 moves from Li Jinglin's form:

    1. Double pulling hands - instead of both palms facing down, he changed it into one hand facing down and the other hand facing up.
    2. Twin peaks to the ears - instead of punching with fist to the ear (he still did that when he was young), he changed it into both palms strike to the ear.
    3. Striking tiger - instead of using hammer fist, he changed it into hook punch.
    4. Cross leg - instead of doing arm pulling leg kick, he added XingYi Pi Chuan into it.
    5. Step back repulse monkey - instead of turn your head back, he changed it always look forward.
    6. Defending hand - instead of using 7 star stance, he changed it into flat foot toward his later years.

    He had intention to add "leg skill" into it such as to add:

    - "knee seize" into Peng.
    - "twist and spring" into Lu.
    - "leg seize" into Ji.
    - "inner hook" into An.
    - ...

    But he didn't continue that effort.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    In solo form,no.In PH and apps,sure. I have films.

    CMC was Cheng-fu's disciple,so formally it's YCF lineage.It mostly is anyway,just has an influence from Pan-hou and Shao-hou.And a Taoist sect.

    Truth is,you folks do Yang w/less inclination than anyone I've seen other than CMC people.

    Oh now,I wasn't getting testy.Howe'er when you mention that TC wasn't Chang's main system (which did seem to possibly imply that that might be why he was doing things you deemed contrary to what you were taught)- I pointed out that neither was your orgs headman.'Cause it doesn't necessarily matter.

    I don't dispute Wong's TC legitimacy.(Separate ch'i gung study is moot in this discussion).But don't try and tell me CLF wasn't his main thing.It's what he was known most for years ago.It's where his rep came from in the MA circles,not from TC.I remember this stuff.(I even remember when he tried to claim the GM chair of CLF,or at least Hung Sing,after the death of Lau Bun. You probably don't even know about that).
     
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter



    Sigh- I never said TC wasn't Chang's main system, I asked about it because the OP seemed to state it. That's all. Please try to not read more into it than what I actually said because you aren't accurate in your attempts to do so. I wasn't trying to imply anything.

    I will tell you that GM Wong has studied Yang TCC intensively under an established lineage for decades. I don't consider it a secondary thing to his CLF and that isn't the way it is represented in my school. You are free to feel otherwise. But there are other perspectives that are valid.

    As for all the other lineage politics, yes, I am somewhat familiar with it from multiple viewpoints even though it is before my time studying MA. But I really don't care to get into all that stuff. It's a waste of time to me. Again, I would say there are multiple perspectives for those that bother with that sort of thing.

    p.s. I thought I had added a smilie to the "don't get testy" statement. I apparently failed to do so. I added it now. Chalk it up to quick posts on breaks at work.

    I also never said CMC wasn't from YCF lineage. I know he was a disciple of YCF. I merely stated it isn't in my lineage as a response to someone incorrectly guessing my line of study.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  10. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter


    Interesting. We are taught to get extra reach in moves like Brush Knee by extension of the forward arm. Meaning that shoulder is 45% forward- not even with the other shoulder. That extra rotation gives more reach and power without over commitment. (I hope I explained that clearly. I have trouble with written descriptions. Trying to get better at it.)

    Again, not saying one is correct over the other- just comparing because it interests me.
     
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Here is a training to make your body to be in straight line. People have to spend a good amount of effort to develop it. When you do that, since you are in bow-arrow stance, you have to lean.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21VOq0cTwuY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21VOq0cTwuY[/ame]
     
  12. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Interesting stuff. However, I think some of those lines in the first three pictures are not exactly drawn the same way and are a bit misleading regarding the degree of lean when comparing the images.

    Going left to right like reading..........

    The red line does not follow the angle of the knee in picture two, but does so in picture 3. This is somewhat inconsistant. You can see the curtain between the leg and the line in image two. You can't really compare this in picture one because it is the back leg instead of the front in the others.

    If one was to draw the red line from the knee joint in picture 2, like in picture three, I think it would show a much lesser degree of a lean from a smaller part of the body. Look at the green line in picture two and see how much of the back is actually much straighter than say picture one.

    Or better yet, just look at picture one and two and ignore the lines. Can one really tell me that they are leaning the same amount? Even though the red line suggests a similar lean? 1 appears to me to be leaning much more than 2. Or even look at the green lines. 1 separates at the buttocks, 2 is much closer for a far greater portion of the back.

    Furthermore, the heads in all top 3 images are held upwards. However, they only draw the redline being crooked from the back of the shoulders, following the neck and up through the head on image 3. I find this also gives a somewhat skewed perception.

    Not saying there isn't some interesting points made in these images. Just saying they aren't entirely consistent and accurate either.

    As for the other styles. My interest is in comparing styles of TCC. The discussion was not about those other styles. BTW, I could post lots of images/ videos showing various styles making a point to hold themselves up much straighter too. It isn't like a straight posture isn't a fundamental aspect of many MAs as well. And then reversed your question about "if all these styles hold themselves up in a straight posture" Not really seeing the point in this.

    Anyways, what I have learned from this thread is one principle the way I am taught is not as universal in TCC as I had thought.There are varying thoughts on the matter in the wide world of TCC. Heh, I should have known.




     
  13. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    Until we can define what is and what isn't Taijiquan, it will be difficult to label anything as "authentic" or not.

    Not even Taijiquan was called Taijiquan prior to the mid-19th Century. Then there are styles commonly called Taijiquan today (such as the "Zhang Sanfeng" Taijiquan practiced today at Wudang Mountain) which have no known connection to the rest of the Taijiquan family (i.e. those styles which descended from Chen style, which some would also claim is not "authentic" Taiji!)

    So is the Taijiquan from the video the OP posted authentic? Depends what we mean by "authenic" :)
     
  14. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Thanks, can you give me a reference to what you have said?

    Another grand student of Li Jinglin, Sha Guozheng (1904-1993) also used the 81 forms.
     
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    There is no reference. Everything that I have said is not written down in any text form. But I'm sure 100 years from today, people may use what we have discussed here as "reference".

    The OP asks opinions about "Chang Taiji", and since

    Chang Taiji = Yang Taiji + Shuai Chiao

    We just cannot discuss "Chang Taiji" without reference to Shuai Chiao. In Taiwan, people call "Chang Taiji" as "Shuai Chiao Taiji" for good reason.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  16. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Kao 靠 in 13 tendencies 十三势 means lean against.
     
  17. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    And beans means Heinz :woo:

    Would it kill you to actually type something worth reading?
     
  18. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Thanks again for your contribution, can you comment on the similarities between Chang Taiji and Wu (Ng) Taiji? And what is the implication of Taijiquan to Shuai Jiao?
     

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